Keep On Moving

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Two things said by the Lex on the Poptimists chart thread:

"Gareth and I were talking last night about how a lot of the pro-pop people appear to have collectively decided that pop is a sonic genre rather than...anything and everything which cannibalises anything and everything else with an eye on the charts and sonic results all over the map, which is how I would want to define and approve of pop."

"I think my view of pop is the, the pure poppist view! the "pop-is-not-a-sound-but-an-ethos" argument which means that anything from Avril Lavigne to Stardust can be pop if it wants but that any attempt to define pop on strict sonic boundaries, or to make music based on these definitions (as many of these Swedes seem to do), is itself r*ck*sm or even worse INDIE"

Worth more discussion I reckons. Maybe we should ignore the whole qn of indie as I honestly think it's a side issue, and let's also try and leave rock1sm out of this until we know what it means, but yeah, is pop a sound or an ethos, or a sound that epitomises an ethos, or WHAT?

(If yr starving for actual YSI fun I will have some goodies for you tonight, including Bosh of the Week)

(Meanwhile for full on comments box madness scroll back to the Now 18 poll and look at the bottom - EEK)

Comments

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

HAHA OH NOES XPOST!!

Anyway:

One principle of "poptimism" - for me anyway: The commercial success of music is nearly always interesting, whether or not the music itself is any good or you might phrase it Successful music may or may not be good, but it's rarely easily dismissed. Obviously people dismiss it all the time, but by this I mean that they are lunkheads.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD THAT COMMENTS BOX MADNESS!

(i think this is a better thread as it's more general and less these-bloody-swedes)

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Pop = fun to listen to and maybe even dance to. Made for the audience to enjoy.

Pop that makes one feel miserable is either goth or soul (depending on how good the song is).

Indie = made for the artist to enjoy and b8ll8cks to anyone who doesn't.

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

GOTH = SOUL proven by INADVERTENT KATSCIENCE

(ps i think this is true)

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

So OK we can define pop by 'success' yes. And it's always assumed this has to be success in the wider market - huge sales and so on.

But surely something is also pop - or at least takes on some of the magic or characteristics of pop - when its success takes place in a smaller community, a pocket universe like ILM or East London or Poptimism or whatever. So maybe the characteristics of pop are its ability to induce rushes of enthusiasm, excitement, to override 'considered' response?

[boyofbadgers.livejournal.com]

Can community = fans of genre X?

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

=> so pop comes in two sorts: that made for the DANCEFLOOR, and BALLADS made by people who usually make the former.

[chezghost.livejournal.com]

The way people carry on it often feels like there's this idea floating around that if the singer or the producers don't sound like they're having fun it's not really Pop and is something else.

But presumably nobody really agrees with this do they?

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

I am trying to think of an "indie" counter-example where band/singer/producers sound like they are having fun. Hmm. *scratches head*

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Here's the definition of pop from the Poptimists info page:

"What counts as pop is left up to you, but it probably includes at least some stuff that gets in the charts."

The caveat is there only as a notice to put off people who are purely into power pop or whatever, Maybe I shouldn't try and put them off.

The 'up to you' think is because part of what I like about being 'into pop' is the possibility of being persuaded that something unlikely IS pop.

(This is because I use 'pop' as something interchangeable with 'what I value'. People's choice of value words - "it rocks", "it has soul", etc. is interesting.)

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Yes at the bottom of the pie thingy thread I wondered whether pop was an ethos of LISTENING or of CREATING. (Ans - I don't know)

[sbp.livejournal.com]

Maybe we should ignore the whole .. of indie

Sounds good to me... ;-)

[chezghost.livejournal.com]

People I think made a lot of great Pop but never looked like they were/are having Fun:

Kraftwerk
The Pet Shop Boys
Alison Goldfrapp
Yello
Ron Mael


So it would seem an element of crankiness in Pop is key (for me)!

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Yello is fun!

Barp barp. Chk! Chk-cha-kaaaa!

dreary vocal monotone != cranky music.

[braisedbywolves.livejournal.com]

I was sort of surprised to hear Alex say the second quote. I agree with it completely - it was the stance I took on the Response: Death of Pop thread which was my entry into ILX - but it means that logically after you realise that Indie has gone the other way, and is now a sonic sound rather than an ethos, as Tom pointed out yesterday (on Alex's racism thread?), you must acknowledge the existence or potential existence of indie pop.

[braisedbywolves.livejournal.com]

(actually I think I more mean the first quote there)

[chezghost.livejournal.com]

I tend to view anything that's musically dependent on synths/samplers/drum machines etc.* but structured as a conventional song (verse/bridge/chorus or close enough to) as POP.

I can see how this might be 'wrong', in that the technology/method is irrelevent wrt determining Indieness in terms of ethos.

But it's a habit I got into back when I was complaining about why Moloko or whoever were not more popular (before 'Sing It Back'!) and it's been hard to stop or even rethink.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

What do you think of pre-synthesiser/drum machine era chart hits then? Are they still pop?

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

NEW THEORY:

Pop = stuff you like when you are P1SSED or otherwise WORSE 4 WEAR.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

i.e. when you cannot Think Deeply about whether you like the song or not and your instinct takes over.

& another question

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Are there things which have stopped being pop, or which have become pop?

Re: & another question

[juror8.livejournal.com]

I think the Pixies have become more *pop* since their original split. Maybe some of the mid 90s emo bands (Sunny Day Real Estate et al) are probably "popper" now considering the bands that have come in their wake.

[jauntyalan.livejournal.com]

fun as this may be, i'm not sure this is going the right way. i think most of the time we're using these terms not in earnest but as a form of rhetorical play. ok so it's fun to play at the science of what is pop/indie, but what an exhausting thread.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

GPWM. Normal service resumed tomorrow I think. There's some good stuff buried within though.

[jel-bugle.livejournal.com]

Pop = has a chorus or a hook that you can sing or hum.

[(Anonymous)]

The term "semipopular" was coined approximately 37 years ago and is still useful.

He Who Believes That The Pazz & Jop Results Will Be Posted In Two Hours

[(Anonymous)]

By one rather narrow definition of indie, these are the top five indie performers in the U.S. this week:

Panic! At the Disco
Juanita Bynum
Little Big Town
Ying Yang Twins
Too Short

He Who Bought Freaky Tales When It Was First Released

[(Anonymous)]

As my book makes clear, pop can either be a sound or an ethos depending on which judgment will differentiate you from your older brother win the particular argument you are currently engaged in.

For the purposes of this particular argument I want to point out that girls used to scream for the Rolling Stones, and that the world's current best pop star (Ashlee Simpson) will sometimes employ vocal attacks derived ultimately from "Satisfaction" and "Positively 4th Street" and "Violet" etc. So whether as sound or ethos, I'm not sure you guys get it. (And Stones and Dylan and Courtney were surely drawing on all the popular culture they'd gorged on as children.) (But to be honest I should also point out that Ashlee isn't nearly as boffo at the box office as I'd like.)

He Who Believes That Pazz & Jop Is Now About An Hour And A Half Away
(And I Would Like To Point Out That I Am Indeed A Spam Robot So You Can Stop Asking, OK?)

[(Anonymous)]

Pop = has a chorus or a hook that you can sing or hum.

Can you hum "Stardust"? "For the Good Times" (Ray Price, #1 country, #11 pop, USA, 1970)?

[(Anonymous)]

Or "Rapper's Delight" for that matter?

He Who Takes Pleasure In Contradicting Others

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

You could tap it!

[(Anonymous)]

By the way, what do you guys think of dark metal/goth (e.g., Sisters of Mercy, Tiamat, the Gathering, Lacuna Coil, Evanescence, Avril Lavigne, Kelly Clarkson)?

He Who Has Heard "Losing Grip" And "Unwanted" And "Addicted" And "Hear Me" (But I Am Not Going To Count Hilary Duff's "Fly" As Goth No Matter What Anyone On The Rolling Teenpop 2006 Thread Says)

[jel-bugle.livejournal.com]

Evanescence, Avril Lavigne, Kelly Clarkson = great, def. pop.

I have Lacuna Coil on order, hopefully it will come soon.

[(Anonymous)]

While we're all waiting for the Pazz & Jop results, let me note that Marit Larsen, formerly the M in M2M, unless she was the other M, went to see Antony & the Johnstons in November, "and it was absolutely fantastic."

Stan, Your Biggest Fan