Via maura

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones

- I would imagine there'll be lots of blogtalk about this one. It feels to me like he's fighting old battles, or maybe telling old war stories that aren't quite as tightly relevant to now as they should be. But the point about the shift from imitator to fan seems an interesting one.

Meanwhile there's still a couple of hours to vote in the Pop Open.

Comments

[pot80.livejournal.com]

That's such bullshit though! So basically music shouldn't be about the taste and interest and expression of artists, it should be about supporting your sense of triumphalism regarding contemporary black music? Also, wtf @ black music being superior as a matter of fact, that black people are the only people capable of making profound music? That's some serious magical negro bullshit right there.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with SFJ that "miscegenation" is neccessarily better (or that black music is neccessarily more inventive) - in fact I'm not even sure that he's putting as much weight on "should" as you are. But if a proportion of bohemian white acts in the 60s, 70s and 80s were at ease with incorporating contemporary black influences into their sound, and a lot fewer are now, then what happened? That's an interesting question even if you don't believe that such incorporation would be at all worthwhile!

[pot80.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the obvs answer is that culture in the United States has willfully segregated itself, in part thanks to technology. Think about it the other way -- aside from cameos from Chris fucking Martin or stuff Kanye West does, how many black artists are taking cues from white artists? Virtually none, I think it's actually far more common to find white artists now taking from contemporary black music than vice versa. But no one wants to address that for obvious reasons! It's easier to say "shame on whitey" than engage with the way black culture becomes increasingly hermetic. It's a two way street.

Also, I think a LOT of white people are willing to love black music, but are self-conscious about stealing from contemporary black music because they feel that they will be mocked for doing so. And you know what? They are right! Our culture makes a habit of mocking white people who try to "be black."

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

good point about the two-way street, pot80, i hadn't thought of that.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Yes, you see, now we're getting somewhere, cos that also didn't used to happen.

I think - and I'm only an observer, not remotely involved in US culture in any depth now - that there's been a hardening of identity politics generally and a willingness to mock people stepping, not so much outside their identity but into other identity-driven areas of culture. (Even when - or perhaps especially when - those areas of culture are being established and policed by businesses as much as by individuals)

[pot80.livejournal.com]

Bingo @ the "policed by businesses" thing.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

Sorry what do you mean by "identity-driven areas of culture"?

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

"black culture", "gay culture", "teenage culture", "hispanic culture" - & I can see why these cultures are policed, there's no reason why the Enlightened White Dude should get to magpie everything, but also there's obvious money to be made out of firming up these boundaries.

[dickmalone.livejournal.com]

Well, he actually says what you say in the second paragraph, and he has an answer to what you say in the first paragraph. Despite the Pavement-bashing (and, uh, backhanded Furnaces-complimenting?) I think he's taking a fairly familiar side here.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

No, it's not as simple as just a two-way street - this may or may not be fair but nothing where one of the sides has been and still is privileged above the other as a matter of course ever is. The onus is not on black artists to acknowledge white music, which is still assumed to be the epicentre of popular culture. The onus isn't really on white artists to do much of anything either except shut up forever. The onus is on the people acting as the gatekeepers and tastemakers of popular culture to stop privileging white musicians and using them as a standard which subcultures have to aspire to.

[pot80.livejournal.com]

No, let's forget the onus stuff. Let's think about how there's little to no cultural exchange either way, and how that doesn't make anything better -- the music, the people, the culture at large. The hermetic culture is suffocating black music too.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Not as far as I can hear! (though from what I can hear, the cultural exchanges being made by "black music" are still going strong - hip-hop and r&b are still interacting with just about every genre out there including, unfortunately, indie rock. a bit more hermeticism is needed on that front)

[pot80.livejournal.com]

I think your attitude here is kinda the problem -- that to make things better, whiteness has to be warped or eliminated, that blackness must be placed on a pedestal. It'd be far better for there to be more of a dialogue, more cross-polination, more tolerance and understanding of different experiences, not just black or white.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

A good question! Are bands more hermit-like? Or merely forced to produce (or perhaps the label will only release their MOR material) the music the record buying public will buy? 'Record-buying' is key here - labels are honing in on HMV £50 man who will keep buying the same old rekkids no matter what, whereas the kids are dlling all the new & exciting stuff for free and as such major labels are discouraged against releasing it? This is all wild speculation obv.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

i think that sort of misses the point, kat, in that indie's domination of music (or at least non-black music) is achieved more through the proliferation of bands on myspace, in commercials, in clubs, etc. and what records chart (or are bought) is kind of irrelevant.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Well yes, but it still means major labels are losing money everywhere except mum-rock (indie labels never make any money to begin with!), and hence are very wary of funding more experimental artists whose target buyers are going to be teenagers/students/music savvy types who nick stuff off the interwebs. The market for the experiemental stuff is almost certainly much wider if they were given the chance, but the majors just can't risk it in the current climate. This is totally moving away from the black/white question but might explain the lack of experimentation compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago.

[pot80.livejournal.com]

Well, it depends on what you call "indie labels" -- Matador, Subpop, and Merge are all doing quite well and have modest, profitable successes with artists like Arcade Fire, Spoon, Cat Power, New Pornographers, Belle & Sebastian, Iron & Wine, the Shins, etc. Those labels are doing very well for themselves right now.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

my point was just that if ALL 100 skinny white boys want to be either death cab for cutie, mcr, or pavement, by definition those three bands will get signed and those three bands will chart. sort of law of averages. whereas if you start from dcc, mcr, and pavement being signed, then it's entirely possible that the 97 other bands that aren't signed are different and better. and sfj's argument (=generalizing=) is that they're all the same, not that we're only getting to hear the crap ones.

i think your questions makes more sense in the context of radio, though: given the accessibility of recording technology nowadays, there shouldn't be any lack of high-"quality" music of all kinds. we can understand why major labels don't want to sign something that won't sell, and why stores don't want a huge inventory of stuff that doesn't sell. but why isn't there a market for more diverse radio. it doesn't cost these stations anything since they essentially get their "inventory" free.

(yes, i know we've discussed these issues before, too, but anyway...)

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

For US radio, definitely - UK radio barely seems to play any music at all :( But that's for another thread.