Via maura

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/musical/2007/10/22/071022crmu_music_frerejones

- I would imagine there'll be lots of blogtalk about this one. It feels to me like he's fighting old battles, or maybe telling old war stories that aren't quite as tightly relevant to now as they should be. But the point about the shift from imitator to fan seems an interesting one.

Meanwhile there's still a couple of hours to vote in the Pop Open.

Comments

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Well the argument there would be - and it's an argument that got argued a lot on ILM - that indie-ish bands have shifted from identifying with and imitating contemporary black music to imitating older black music (disco, funk, Motown, old R&B) - Sasha veers toward this a bit by drawing a line at "The Chronic" but doesn't really pursue it.

Even that feels like an old argument though - what disappointed me about the piece is that I hoped he was going to be more specific about what's good and bad about what you might call post-Arcade-Fire indie (for a lot of which rhythm is really vital to get that rolling surging feel) but he doesn't grip on that at all, instead he complains about Wilco winning a poll FIVE YEARS AGO!

[pot80.livejournal.com]

That's such bullshit though! So basically music shouldn't be about the taste and interest and expression of artists, it should be about supporting your sense of triumphalism regarding contemporary black music? Also, wtf @ black music being superior as a matter of fact, that black people are the only people capable of making profound music? That's some serious magical negro bullshit right there.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

I don't agree with SFJ that "miscegenation" is neccessarily better (or that black music is neccessarily more inventive) - in fact I'm not even sure that he's putting as much weight on "should" as you are. But if a proportion of bohemian white acts in the 60s, 70s and 80s were at ease with incorporating contemporary black influences into their sound, and a lot fewer are now, then what happened? That's an interesting question even if you don't believe that such incorporation would be at all worthwhile!

[pot80.livejournal.com]

Well, I think the obvs answer is that culture in the United States has willfully segregated itself, in part thanks to technology. Think about it the other way -- aside from cameos from Chris fucking Martin or stuff Kanye West does, how many black artists are taking cues from white artists? Virtually none, I think it's actually far more common to find white artists now taking from contemporary black music than vice versa. But no one wants to address that for obvious reasons! It's easier to say "shame on whitey" than engage with the way black culture becomes increasingly hermetic. It's a two way street.

Also, I think a LOT of white people are willing to love black music, but are self-conscious about stealing from contemporary black music because they feel that they will be mocked for doing so. And you know what? They are right! Our culture makes a habit of mocking white people who try to "be black."

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

good point about the two-way street, pot80, i hadn't thought of that.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Yes, you see, now we're getting somewhere, cos that also didn't used to happen.

I think - and I'm only an observer, not remotely involved in US culture in any depth now - that there's been a hardening of identity politics generally and a willingness to mock people stepping, not so much outside their identity but into other identity-driven areas of culture. (Even when - or perhaps especially when - those areas of culture are being established and policed by businesses as much as by individuals)

[pot80.livejournal.com]

Bingo @ the "policed by businesses" thing.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

Sorry what do you mean by "identity-driven areas of culture"?

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

"black culture", "gay culture", "teenage culture", "hispanic culture" - & I can see why these cultures are policed, there's no reason why the Enlightened White Dude should get to magpie everything, but also there's obvious money to be made out of firming up these boundaries.

[dickmalone.livejournal.com]

Well, he actually says what you say in the second paragraph, and he has an answer to what you say in the first paragraph. Despite the Pavement-bashing (and, uh, backhanded Furnaces-complimenting?) I think he's taking a fairly familiar side here.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

No, it's not as simple as just a two-way street - this may or may not be fair but nothing where one of the sides has been and still is privileged above the other as a matter of course ever is. The onus is not on black artists to acknowledge white music, which is still assumed to be the epicentre of popular culture. The onus isn't really on white artists to do much of anything either except shut up forever. The onus is on the people acting as the gatekeepers and tastemakers of popular culture to stop privileging white musicians and using them as a standard which subcultures have to aspire to.

[pot80.livejournal.com]

No, let's forget the onus stuff. Let's think about how there's little to no cultural exchange either way, and how that doesn't make anything better -- the music, the people, the culture at large. The hermetic culture is suffocating black music too.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Not as far as I can hear! (though from what I can hear, the cultural exchanges being made by "black music" are still going strong - hip-hop and r&b are still interacting with just about every genre out there including, unfortunately, indie rock. a bit more hermeticism is needed on that front)

[pot80.livejournal.com]

I think your attitude here is kinda the problem -- that to make things better, whiteness has to be warped or eliminated, that blackness must be placed on a pedestal. It'd be far better for there to be more of a dialogue, more cross-polination, more tolerance and understanding of different experiences, not just black or white.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

A good question! Are bands more hermit-like? Or merely forced to produce (or perhaps the label will only release their MOR material) the music the record buying public will buy? 'Record-buying' is key here - labels are honing in on HMV £50 man who will keep buying the same old rekkids no matter what, whereas the kids are dlling all the new & exciting stuff for free and as such major labels are discouraged against releasing it? This is all wild speculation obv.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

i think that sort of misses the point, kat, in that indie's domination of music (or at least non-black music) is achieved more through the proliferation of bands on myspace, in commercials, in clubs, etc. and what records chart (or are bought) is kind of irrelevant.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Well yes, but it still means major labels are losing money everywhere except mum-rock (indie labels never make any money to begin with!), and hence are very wary of funding more experimental artists whose target buyers are going to be teenagers/students/music savvy types who nick stuff off the interwebs. The market for the experiemental stuff is almost certainly much wider if they were given the chance, but the majors just can't risk it in the current climate. This is totally moving away from the black/white question but might explain the lack of experimentation compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago.

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

um, what indie-ish bands identified and imitated contemporary black music? i'm honestly drawing a blank...

...and don't say orange juice ;)

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

ORANGE JUICE!!

Talking Heads. A Certain Ratio. Public Image Limited. The Slits. [posts jpeg of Reynolds book cover]

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

& I said "bohemian" so we can go back and think about Bowie, the Stones etc etc.

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

OK, i didn't realise you were thinking ALL the way back ;) but who, post-pwei, has done it?

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Nobody BUT this is kind of the point being made! At some point the shutters came down.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Er dude, PWEI is practically hip hop!

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

ha, if the poppies is the best you can come up with i think my point is proven ;)

[jauntyalan.livejournal.com]

obv i am pro the idea of PWEI as the last acceptable indie band :-D