A kung fu fighter in a disco

Well, the thing that makes that piece kinda awful is that Sasha kinda willfully ignores SO MUCH MUSIC in order to make his point, which is basically "I need music to have elements of black culture in order to feel good about it." Which is ridiculous! I mean, is there something intrinsically terrible about music that communicates whiteness? I really don't think that white musicians who are so white that they can't effectively express themselves in the terms of "black music" are racist or flawed, they are just being themselves.

But uh, just in terms of really popular indie-ish music -- what about Spoon, who he's written about twice this year? what about LCD Soundsystem? what about the Rapture? what about Belle & Sebastian and other twee type bands who appropriate a lot of old school R&B elements?

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Well the argument there would be - and it's an argument that got argued a lot on ILM - that indie-ish bands have shifted from identifying with and imitating contemporary black music to imitating older black music (disco, funk, Motown, old R&B) - Sasha veers toward this a bit by drawing a line at "The Chronic" but doesn't really pursue it.

Even that feels like an old argument though - what disappointed me about the piece is that I hoped he was going to be more specific about what's good and bad about what you might call post-Arcade-Fire indie (for a lot of which rhythm is really vital to get that rolling surging feel) but he doesn't grip on that at all, instead he complains about Wilco winning a poll FIVE YEARS AGO!

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alexmacpherson.livejournal.com

There's an article on the grau site today bemoaning the crapness of indie rock '07 as well. I have no patience with either that or this b/c for all that they are RIGHT about indie rock '07 being crap they both act as if indie rock is the centre of popular music, as if its crapness matters at all. yes it's crap, clap clap clap, it's always been crap, DON'T LISTEN TO INDIE ROCK FFS and then you won't have to hear crap music! and if it's so bad why are you taking the time to wring yr hands over it and pen long thinkpieces, why not focus on the tons of great music out there which ISN'T INDIE FUCKING ROCK AAAARGH

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alexmacpherson.livejournal.com

what Belle & Sebastian appropriate no r&b elements!!!!

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What a lot of f4nnydangle! Four pages to say maybe two interesting points? The only sentence to really grab me in the whole of that was the old r0ck1st argument: "musicians retreating inward and settling for the lassitude and monotony that so many indie acts seem to confuse with authenticity and significance." However I think this dude's logic is very flawed if he thinks that the only way indie musicians can progress is to incorporate 'black' musical elements. That seems, if anything, regressive! Surely the next big step is to discover something amazing that can inject new life into all genres (like sampling did for hip-hop) no matter what skin colour of the musican making it. Christ I sound like a big hippy.

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Yes there's something to be said for this - though the problem is, as we've been discussing with the Radio 1 etc threads, that this stuff (the stuff in the Grau article, not the SFJ piece) isn't "indie" any more, it's mainstream pop or rock or whatever you want to call it.

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You're totally, totally, totally wrong.

See: "Dirty Dream #2," "Women's Realm," "Funny Little Frog," "If She Wants Me," "Legal Man."

Fun fact: R&B existed before the 90s! Remember Motown and Stax? I think your people called it "Northern Soul."

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Indie rock is certainly the mainstream of music in terms of critical assessment, so it's easy to see how their perspective can get thrown off.

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Right.

And what about music made by people who are neither black or white? Do they even count at all?

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That's such bullshit though! So basically music shouldn't be about the taste and interest and expression of artists, it should be about supporting your sense of triumphalism regarding contemporary black music? Also, wtf @ black music being superior as a matter of fact, that black people are the only people capable of making profound music? That's some serious magical negro bullshit right there.

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I don't agree with SFJ that "miscegenation" is neccessarily better (or that black music is neccessarily more inventive) - in fact I'm not even sure that he's putting as much weight on "should" as you are. But if a proportion of bohemian white acts in the 60s, 70s and 80s were at ease with incorporating contemporary black influences into their sound, and a lot fewer are now, then what happened? That's an interesting question even if you don't believe that such incorporation would be at all worthwhile!

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carsmilesteve.livejournal.com

um, what indie-ish bands identified and imitated contemporary black music? i'm honestly drawing a blank...

...and don't say orange juice ;)

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Well, I think the obvs answer is that culture in the United States has willfully segregated itself, in part thanks to technology. Think about it the other way -- aside from cameos from Chris fucking Martin or stuff Kanye West does, how many black artists are taking cues from white artists? Virtually none, I think it's actually far more common to find white artists now taking from contemporary black music than vice versa. But no one wants to address that for obvious reasons! It's easier to say "shame on whitey" than engage with the way black culture becomes increasingly hermetic. It's a two way street.

Also, I think a LOT of white people are willing to love black music, but are self-conscious about stealing from contemporary black music because they feel that they will be mocked for doing so. And you know what? They are right! Our culture makes a habit of mocking white people who try to "be black."

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A good question! Are bands more hermit-like? Or merely forced to produce (or perhaps the label will only release their MOR material) the music the record buying public will buy? 'Record-buying' is key here - labels are honing in on HMV £50 man who will keep buying the same old rekkids no matter what, whereas the kids are dlling all the new & exciting stuff for free and as such major labels are discouraged against releasing it? This is all wild speculation obv.

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ORANGE JUICE!!

Talking Heads. A Certain Ratio. Public Image Limited. The Slits. [posts jpeg of Reynolds book cover]

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& I said "bohemian" so we can go back and think about Bowie, the Stones etc etc.

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good point about the two-way street,

pot80, i hadn't thought of that.

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i think that sort of misses the point, kat, in that indie's domination of music (or at least non-black music) is achieved more through the proliferation of bands on myspace, in commercials, in clubs, etc. and what records chart (or are bought) is kind of irrelevant.

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Yes, you see, now we're getting somewhere, cos that also didn't used to happen.

I think - and I'm only an observer, not remotely involved in US culture in any depth now - that there's been a hardening of identity politics generally and a willingness to mock people stepping, not so much outside their identity but into other identity-driven areas of culture. (Even when - or perhaps especially when - those areas of culture are being established and policed by businesses as much as by individuals)

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Bingo @ the "policed by businesses" thing.

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For what it's worth, I liked the article, although perhaps I should read it again after all the comments - it's easy for (e.g.) lex to say all indie is crap, all guitars are crap, ignore them, but here was at least an attempt to tease out why.

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Sorry what do you mean by "identity-driven areas of culture"?

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Well yes, but it still means major labels are losing money everywhere except mum-rock (indie labels never make any money to begin with!), and hence are very wary of funding more experimental artists whose target buyers are going to be teenagers/students/music savvy types who nick stuff off the interwebs. The market for the experiemental stuff is almost certainly much wider if they were given the chance, but the majors just can't risk it in the current climate. This is totally moving away from the black/white question but might explain the lack of experimentation compared to 10, 20, 30 years ago.

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"black culture", "gay culture", "teenage culture", "hispanic culture" - & I can see why these cultures are policed, there's no reason why the Enlightened White Dude should get to magpie everything, but also there's obvious money to be made out of firming up these boundaries.

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