A kung fu fighter in a disco

Well, when you say Lily Allen and Amy Winehouse, you really mean Mark Ronson, right? And that would support the case -- he's also had a huge UK hit with "Stop Me," and ha, three is a trend!

I would think that this is a fairly right-on observation, but it'll have to wait a bit til we see how many people try to mimic that sound.

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chezghost.livejournal.com

he may be right. Allen and Winehouse get to proclaim themselves 'not boring' like Tunstall and co, 'not plastic' like Girls Aloud and co - and they're feistier/mouthier than anyone else in British pop at the mo which counts for a lot (press coverage etc.).

it's a shame (for me) that with such relatively strong personalities that their music has to be so retro.

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Yeah soundwise but it's not JUST Mark Ronson. The current Allen vs Cheryl Cole 'spat' that's taking up the papers is kind of also about ways of being and acting too.

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my pre-thought response (based on only a scattered hearing of POP NOW) is

Take That (one-dimensional)* vs Britpop (seemed at the time multi-dimensional)**, so Britpop WON (then became one-dimensional)

Xenomania (multi-dimensional) vs LilyAmy (one-dimensionalish)*** = LilyAmy not in a good place to WIN in the first place

[there are a LOT OF QUESTIONS BEGGED and VULENRABLE CLAIMS in this response]

*This is how i hear em -- compared to eg the Spicers, they have a narrow sound and identity
**ooh controversial -- but I think in the early 90s this argument could be made, that Britpop was offering an OPENING UP not a SHUTTING DOWN (i wz NOT LISTENING AT THE TIME)
***Still not sured if I've heard ANYTHING by la winehouse

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Who is Cheryl Cole?

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Is there a link between the strength and the retro-ness tho? Do they draw strength FROM the retro-ness (I'd argue yes!)

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nee Cheryl Tweedy - one of Girls Aloud

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Another thing you should note is that Allen and especially Winehouse have enjoyed success in the United States. They translate fairly well over here, whereas you can't even hope to find Girls Aloud et al in even the best import bins.

Winehouse is really blowing up over here! It's kinda cool actually. (Tunstall has had a few hits too, but she's in another realm, what we'd call AAA/Adult pop.)

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what i mean by "dimensionality" is i think something like "extent of adaptive resources"

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Oh, okay! I was thinking "huh, she really has it in for chicks named Cheryl, what's the odds of that..."

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alexmacpherson.livejournal.com

Did Britpop really kill off Take That? My memory is of early Britpop coexisting quite happily with TT, who killed themselves off at the height of their popularity.

And I'm not sure how viable "Xenomania-style pop" ever has been. I mean...other than 'Round Round' have they actually made any massive pop hits without Girls Aloud? Even if Allen and Winehouse didn't exist, I think it'd be apparent that Xenomania's work outside of GA has been fairly moribund. Killing "Richard X style pop" might be a better qn as that looked like it was going to be a fairly viable model for lots of popstars, inc the second-tier, rather than one group's fairly unique sound.

But anyway, I think what Allen and Winehouse have done is completely erased the tension between "Take That music" and "Britpop music" - they satisfy people looking for both, they're acceptable as "fun pop stars" and as "authentic artists" without being "too naff" or "too serious".

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byebyepride.livejournal.com

ding ding ding! Yes. I think you're spot on here.

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sexiest woman of all time acc.FHM poll on TV two weeks ago (to mine and T's bafflement)

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Thing is that while Xenomania themselves may well be adaptive I dunno how adaptive the performers they work with are seen to be (or are)?

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I think in the heat of pub discourse Xenomania was standing in for the whole early-mid 00s* clever electropopjustice thing.

*as Carsmile remarked the other day, OMG ITS THE LATE 00s.

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Yes - if you've already "won" (or sidestepped) any musical arguments before they started then you can spend a lot more time on the personality stuff I guess!

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braisedbywolves.livejournal.com

Yes that clears it up entirely:) could you expand with particular reference to how Lily Allen has less dimensions than the spice girls? On one level she'd clearly seem to have more simply because she doesn't "just" sing about the usual heart based matters.

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if not adaptive can't be "plastic" QED

however yes, good point -- also xeno just NOT THAT BIG?

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alexmacpherson.livejournal.com

...ie I think Xenomania have actually subsumed themselves, not very successfully, into "Allen/Winehouse music" - their career arc shows a definite tightening in recent years, an increasing tendency to be conservative, to try and bandwagon on the current taste for catchy guitar music. To the detriment of all involved tbh.

Dunno if the Cheryl/Lily feud is really significant of anything - Allen's had a feud/rumoured feud with just about everyone and I can't see this sort of thing dividing fans of either group (or if it does it's in a Blur/Oasis way where they're still in under the same umbrella-ella-ella-ay-ay-ay) (and thank the lord Rihanna is not holding this particular one).

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there's only one of her and she's in charge = less dimensions

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alexmacpherson.livejournal.com

Er neither did the Spice Girls!

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They are certainly marketable in the US because they have the retro thing going for them. Faux soul and badass tats is certainly an easier sell than the "group of random models singing" model in the US.

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Britpop fairly directly killed Take That by offering Robbie a way out of the band, and then by revealing the then irrelevance of a Robbie-less TT.

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