a fight for the soul of poptimism...

[byebyepride.livejournal.com]

...has broken out on this thread. Since I am now using 'poptimist' with scare quotes, it may be possible that I am about to publicly 'break' with 'the' 'movement'. :-)

Comments

[braisedbywolves.livejournal.com]

1) Dude, people totally mark Lily Allen down because of her dad! But more to the point I can't imagine that being Keith Allen's daughter is an unending pot of riches. Crucially she wasn't famous before her career started (IE not in the "out on the town" magazines that were Paris's pre-Fame fame) and crucially crucially she's outgrown that - her musical income now dwarfs any pocketmoney she recieves from her dad, which I can't imagine is the case for Paris. Which is the thing that causes the problem, the idea that she doesn't NEED us to like her, she could go back to just being mind-bogglingly rich.

2) She's famous because of a sex video, it's a mark against her in the eyes of many who are more prudish than they'd claim. Also her (expert) riding of this to greater fame is seen as buying into it.

3) My point exactly(ish) - I meant to say that a part of this is that it was her second fame bump - IE people hate that it worked! Though the particular combination of rich/stupid that rankles is a ignorance and disinterest in how the lower classes live - contrary to your belief the diva is not in fact a widely-loved archetype (particularly when there's no identification - people who rose are obviously given an easier time than those who were born on cloud nine)

I have to stop using so many dashes.

[awesomewells.livejournal.com]

Clearly we will not be able to resolve this properly until the arrival of the PEACHES GELDOF album.

Also Lex, why is it that you are so pro-Paris Hilton 2006 for being all "I am a hugely famous and fancied celebrity but I really need true love" and so anti-Robbie Williams 1996 whose early records addressed that exact same theme AND challenged the listener to reassess the singer's baggage in the same way?

[awesomewells.livejournal.com]

And the fact that Poptimists has been SCIENTIFICALLY PROVEN to be very anti-Robbie in general vindicates my point that The Statement is of lesser importance to The Entertainment Value.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Poptimists = anti-Robbie because his music is a bit sh1t these days.

[chezghost.livejournal.com]

these days = last ten years

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

because Paris chooses to convey this through shiny bright 80s-style pop songs with massive choruses whereas Robbie chose mawkish, leaden piano ballads!

(The Vehicle > The Statement > The Entertainment)

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

you mean because he was a boy near some guitars, don't you? ;)

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

YES!

[chezghost.livejournal.com]

There are several reasons why one might celebrate or indeed fetishise Paris Hilton but not Robbie Williams, irrespective of whether one fronts better (however you define that) music generally than the other.

This is a v interesting pickle tho. My probs with Robbie are not actually that he is barely a talent at all, quite mediocre in every respect (as is Paris, tho she has more of a 'blank slate' feel somehow - perhaps just because she is newer than Robbie) but more that his music and songs do not appeal, being as they often quite weak, awkwardly written ballads or pub-rocky/MOR plodders. He has come close to goodness on occasion but 'Rock DJ' and 'Supreme' do not qualify for my iTunes playlist regardless - and nor will 'Rudebox' because of the genuinely poor rapping for which I cannot see a virtue (it could've been great but was misjudged).

[cis.livejournal.com]

yr Robbie Williams point is awesome interesting! I haf tried to address it on ilm but am running up against the poxyfule so: I think one thing clouding the Robbie question is that he fits into that not-sonically-pop-yet-popular category that poptimists tend to have issues with anyway. nevertheless, his whole 'take back your singing in the rain' Freesom '96 thing is key, innit.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

1. I think the fact that Paris doesn't need her musical career to succeed is one of the reasons the album is so good! This is a v small-minded reason though - I would expect nothing better of rockists and so on, but many poptimists are subscribing to the Paris hate as well.

3. Beyoncé has become a global superstar with not many detractors on the back of exactly this!

[awesomewells.livejournal.com]

Surely what is putting people's back up is the fact that you're conflating the anti-Paris Poptimist stance with the anti-Paris rockist stance? As if disliking Paris is de facto anti-Poptimist (in the same way that liking The Killers is de facto anti-Poptimisit)?

(I actually want to like this album now!)

[braisedbywolves.livejournal.com]

I don't know what 'this' in "exactly this" means. She hasn't been on reality TV, she isn't notably stupid, she wasn't born rich (was she? I don't think it's part of her image anyway), she doesn't view poor people as another species, her becoming a global superstar is based largely on being the lead of the premier R&B group of her time, and shagging the premier rapper of her time (sprinkle 'arguably' there). So yeah, if all you got out of that was "there are no famous divas" then I don't think I was being clear enough.

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

Yes, exactly. I haven't waded into this here because I made my comment on Paris in an earlier thread. But I think you (Lex) are wilfully missing the point: you can demand that we like Paris based on Paris, but you seem to expect us to love Paris the person as well (because of the album, or because of the person, I'm not sure which). But the Paris story and the Beyonce story or the Britney story are completely different. And don't pretend you don't know that. And the sex tape really isn't that important, at least to me.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Indeed, Lily didn't really have much contact with her dad when she was growing up. Her famous parentage obviously helped her get a break but she didn't have a priveliged childhood.

Haha, the dude from Rialto co-wrote one of the songs on her album. Fact of the day.

[the-roofdog.livejournal.com]

barrysarll to thread.