when dates go wrong

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

Some of you probably know that my last date - my first since breaking up with my last girlfriend four months back - ended in an argument over pop music. She thought that liking Girls Aloud made me a misogynist, since they were obviously selected by a gang of perverted old men just to look good, and who cared about the music? My arguments, when she would listen to any, which was basically never, were that a) no they weren't, they were selected by Pop Idol voters, overwhelmingly young women, and b) that didn't stop the records being great. She then cited an even worse example: Tatu. "Their new album is fantastic," I said, by this point very much wanting the date to be over. This made me a rabid homophobe, since they are clearly not real lesbians. I was rather losing what thread there was to these arguments by this point - and the one thing that kept being repeated, as if it was self-evidently linked to my misogyny and homophobia, was that they were manufactured disposable pop. I realised I've been living in a sheltered world the last few years, and forgot that such thinking was still out there. (The woman expressed a fondness for Jeff Buckley and k.d. lang, who is clearly a proper lesbian.) ((Also, hello, I just joined.))

Comments

[steviespitfire.livejournal.com]

Not on a date as such, but a burgeoning friendship rather fell apart recently when The Other was unwilling to accept my tastes, along similar lines. And, it's not as if my tastes are exclusively popist.

Misogyny, yes, came up but so did The Irony Question. "You don't really like [say] TaTu. You just like them ironically" I expect everyone here has come up against this at some point. It's quite exasperating, as I simply cannot comprehend how someone could like something ironically! It would seem to imply to me:

1. That person x doesn't actually listen to the music, just expresses "appreciation"; in which case = person x doesn't actually like the music

or

2. That person x does listen to the music, but doesn't particularly enjoy it, and wears his/her listening as sort of badge.

Are either of these plausible? I dunno.

Also, are there any plausible responses to this attack? Other than "Well, I just like the music!" The producer/auteur = the future thing has kind of vanished recently...

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

This has been discussed at, I think it's fair to say, considerable length on ILM over the years. Speaking for myself, I think the best reply is 'fuck off!' Tom's recent point that he believes most people have some sort of good reason for liking the music they do is a strong one - and while I'm not too inclined to make such an assumption, I'm damned if I'm making the opposite one, and I'd rather offer people the basic respect of assuming they like what they say they like, whatever the reasons might be. My love for Tatu or Girls Aloud is no more ironic than my love for Otis Redding or Bob Dylan, and if people won't see that, they are simply closing off avenues of thinking, to no gain except not having to think.

[(Anonymous)]

Don't even get me started on this. My last "date" ended up in similar sorts of arguments.

The bloke was trying to wrangle my words when I was saying "I genuinely love X because it is SO MUCH what it is!" into my love of X being ironic.

I mean both 1 and 2 above seem to be more indicative of the "indie" frame of listening to music - that you like it because of what it represents, an aesthetic or a philosophical idea, rather than how it sounds, how it *feels* when you listen to it.

I mean, for me, "I don't like it because it's overproduced" is a valid excuse, when "I don't like it because it's a manufactured band" is just not.

But anyway, to go back to Martin's original point, when I was having said conversation, I realised that I could never have a relationship with the person. If he could be that purist and dogmatic about music, what would he be like about ethics and philosophical things that actually affected your life/relationship?

My reaction in the end was to send him a link, going "there's this little webboard you might be interested in" and hoping that a few years on ILX might have the same effect on him that it had on me. (though I suspect ILM has changed too much since the early days to serve this function any more.) He has been posting, but who knows how far it will go.

-Kate (not logged in because I don't believe in LJ)

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

The best form of defense is counter-attack: "What's actually bad about it?" is a good way of moving discussion onto the music, or at least onto areas where you can deploy tried-and-true arguments.

[steviespitfire.livejournal.com]

Hmm. I'm not sure I have any interest in ploughing through the ILM archives! :)

But yeah, the having good reason for liking what they listen to seems a fine first principle to me.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

They don't even properly lez up anymore!!

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

ha, I wish when she had protested that they were obviously not real lesbians, I had thought to put on my best attempt at Pete's paedo voice and said "Yes, it'd be much better if the lezzing up was much more... realistic."

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

i think you shd have pointed out that it is only possible to like JEFF BUCKLEY ironically --- or actually not possible at all unless you are some kind of DISHONEST FELONIOUS CONMAN on a BET

i judge him to be...

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

the indie coldplay

Re: i judge him to be...

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

hang on, much as I have no objection to the parallel, are Coldplay not indie? I'd have been waving the indie sign, personally, had they been played at Poptimism. I think I just said something about her dad writing a nice tune or two. I think I specifically mentioned that my favourite version ever of Song To The Siren was by an Elvis impersonator, which didn't go down right either.

Re: i judge him to be...

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

parlophone = beatles label = not indie QED

Re: i judge him to be...

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

The Beatles wrote their own songs and got orchestras in on some records then split up because of artistic differences and all had solo projects = as indie as it fkn gets!

Re: i judge him to be...

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

haha i have taught you well spacegrasshopper --- the beatles are indeed the cat powers of pop

Canada Weighs In

[johnnyctunes.livejournal.com]

Re: tAtU or whatever, I think that there's a point at which we should say "too much artifice" and when we're looking at a manufactured concept band (the concept being, of course, they're pseudo-lesbians on the run from, well, nobody) whose music shamelessly apes nu-metal except with a slight Russian flavour and oh guess what it's about lesbians, do you get it yet, well, that's too much. Sugababes and Girls Aloud not so much.

(Also before anyone mentions Bratz Rock Angels consider that I didn't know they were a band shilling for creepy-ass dolls and that I've already said enough Rosaries to repent for it. Sorry.)


Regarding friendships and musical tastes, I think maybe people should just agree to disagree already. You aren't going to shame anyone into liking the music you like. Unless they like Good Charlotte. Then shame away.

Re: Canada Weighs In

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

I am not convinced that there is such a thing as too much artifice, but my formative years, musically, were dominated by glam. Also, if we all just agreed to disagree some of my friends would be out of work! (I mean those in music journalism, in case you don't know them.)