Two Excerpts from 1978 Black And White Minsterel Show and some questions

[anthonyeaston.livejournal.com]

some questions for the britshes:

1) is this really what punk was working against? because if this went out to 18m homes, and sold number ones, that is the story of punk defeating traditional middle class culture? i dont have my reynolds with me, but i do not remember he mentioning this?
2) why are the men blacked up and not the women?
3) Why was this so popular, between the stage shows, the traveling revue, the tv show, the singles, the albums, the charting--this was a massive success.
4) How do critics of pop integrate this kind of material into the narrative of the UK? If we are poptimists, is there a way of redeeming this? I mean Where Dead Voices Gather by Tosches has a connoisseur's taste, a crate digger's sense of history, and founding mythology to rest his rennovation of Emmet Miller on, if one was going to write about this, what lens would you use?

I am mostly thinking of Tom's upcoming entries on early 70s pop on poptimist, an the comments about the history of UK no. 1s, but anyone can pop in.

Comments

[koganbot]

Gapes!

OK, I had no idea that this existed.

Most of what I'll say just repeats what you guys have said, but anyway:

(a) The music on those two clips is pure Broadway. Or so it seems to me.
(b) But the visuals code as "tropics" (this and #1 are not mutually exclusive, of course).
(c) So even if there's an element of nostalgia (return to the mores that were in effect when one was young) or age (persistence of old patterns despite their general obsolescence in modern world), there's a foreign element built in. Entertainment doesn't just come from the past, it comes from somewhere that isn't Britain.
(d) Er, but what is Britain's attitude to Broadway? Did this sort of show music register as American?
(e) What about Anthony's phrase "traditional middle-class culture"? Is it viable? (Compare: "traditional suburban culture.") I think discussion of "class" tends to underestimate the extent to which the conventional class designations (working, middle, upper) refer to cultures, even though the acting out of the class conflicts often seem to be as cultural rather than economic conflicts (except during actual strikes). So it's possible to talk about middle-class traditions. But in general hasn't it been the middle class's role to adopt to and promulgate new social conditions?
(f) So, to the extent that something's being swept away, who's doing the sweeping?
(g) And what's being swept? To the extent that a class is taking it on the chin from punk, are working and upper being whomped any less than the middle?
(h) Greg Ginn, interviewed in New York Rocker, 1982: "Isn't that a limited view of rock and roll - to say you're rebelling against some class?" (Greg Ginn was the guitarist for Black Flag, who btw named themselves after the flag of anarchy [I was disappointed when I found they weren't named after the roach killer])

Proofreading (belated)

[koganbot]

adopt to = adapt to

[koganbot]

So, when someone middle class is being "traditional," isn't there at least some elements in the "tradition" being invoked that are seen as different from (and maybe antithetical to) the middle-class present?

(Both past and future are coded as "Not middle class." To some extent. And so "middle class" codes as "fake." To some extent.)

[koganbot]

when someone middle class is being "traditional" = when someone [in the] middle class is being "traditional"

[koganbot]

And if one is thinking of punk as a "sweeping away" (should one think of this), isn't this an acting out of imperatives within the culture? Isn't it part of the middle class "tradition" (or whatever) to sweep things away?

(Also, why associate the Black-And-White Minstrel show with the middle class in particular?)

[anthonyeaston.livejournal.com]

It reminds me of Lawerence Welk, more then anything, like Lawerence Welk with black face--and Welk is not only v. much pop music, he is nostalgic pop music, he is unfashionable pop music, and he is ignored...(or Liberace, really)