Blimey, reading that is like wading through treacle. Mr Punk appears to be doing the sort of sums where 2+2="dude where's my scapegoat" instead of 4. Plastering over his points with hand-waving about Blair or public school gives me the impression he's not at all confident in his points and doesn't really understand what we're on about. If this thread is unlocked I'd be interested to hear his responses to the following:
Example 1: "Debating the merits or otherwise of a boring heiress" - surely the fact that there IS a debate invalidates the 'boring' adjective? A minor gripe but this is the essence of what Frank's writing, encouraging debate and finding the interesting points in canonically-overlooked (or otherwise) topics.
Example 2: "The problem is the idea that saying this is in some way news in 2007" - Frank's column is based on his thoughts and opinions. Was this ever claimed as news? The Backstreet Boys may not be new, but Frank/Nathan's thoughts on the matter were, if not new, then processed into a new opinion?
Example 3: "motivating factor with British popists is, overwhelmingly, class, with Americans it might be age" - Where the did this come from? On what is he basing the class/age assumption?
Example 4: "they don’t seem to realise that, if there is an establishment, it is them" - why is this a problem? Are establishment residents incapable of independent thought?
Example 5: "The old high culture disdain for pop cultural objects is retained; what is destroyed is the notion that there is anything more valuable than those objects." - I am struggling to grasp the point of this paragraph. Are us poptimists disdaining of high culture or not? Do we assign greater value to lower culture, or vice versa? The point evolves halfway through into something different, I would like K Punk to expand on what exactly he's getting at here.
Something that baffles me a little in the current outbreak of anti-poptimist feeling is the idea that someone like me is somehow unaware of or in denial about being a public schoolboy and (relative to K-Punk anyway) 'establishment'.
I really would like to have a chat with K-P and at least try and understand what his point is and what he's basing his theories on. Just ten minutes in a room with him! Perhaps my Oxbridge countenance would put him off.
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timeasmymeasure
Argumental flaws, dissected
Date: 2007-08-22 05:02 pm (UTC)Example 1: "Debating the merits or otherwise of a boring heiress" - surely the fact that there IS a debate invalidates the 'boring' adjective? A minor gripe but this is the essence of what Frank's writing, encouraging debate and finding the interesting points in canonically-overlooked (or otherwise) topics.
Example 2: "The problem is the idea that saying this is in some way news in 2007" - Frank's column is based on his thoughts and opinions. Was this ever claimed as news? The Backstreet Boys may not be new, but Frank/Nathan's thoughts on the matter were, if not new, then processed into a new opinion?
Example 3: "motivating factor with British popists is, overwhelmingly, class, with Americans it might be age" - Where the did this come from? On what is he basing the class/age assumption?
Example 4: "they don’t seem to realise that, if there is an establishment, it is them" - why is this a problem? Are establishment residents incapable of independent thought?
Example 5: "The old high culture disdain for pop cultural objects is retained; what is destroyed is the notion that there is anything more valuable than those objects." - I am struggling to grasp the point of this paragraph. Are us poptimists disdaining of high culture or not? Do we assign greater value to lower culture, or vice versa? The point evolves halfway through into something different, I would like K Punk to expand on what exactly he's getting at here.
I could go on but I'm late for dinner.
Re: Argumental flaws, dissected
Date: 2007-08-22 05:13 pm (UTC)Re: Argumental flaws, dissected
Date: 2007-08-22 10:46 pm (UTC)