Cleverness In Pop

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Do you appreciate what I'm going to call 'cleverness' - wordplay, allusion, non-standard structures, etc. - in pop music? Is it something you look for? Who does it well?

Do you think there's an opposition between cleverness and directness (in emotional or physical impact)? Should pop be cleverer?

(Qn arising from today's Popular entry)

Comments

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

I'm already unhappy w/the question by the way - "non-standard structures" is a very broad and vague thing to put under this umbrella!

[damnspynovels.livejournal.com]

surely not really? i mean, define the standard, and then it's anything but.

what's the standard?

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Damned if I know! That's why I'm unhappy with it!

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

the first ppl i thought of when you asked it re 10cc were my lovely ROXY MUSIC -- who i believe will not be trubblin popular for a while yet

and of course it relates to my famous ("famous") question abt nu-prog in ref chart pop c.2002: neo-glam as ragged pop-art collage ect ect

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

I think it's obvious what kind of music you're talking about though...it's a minefield, when it works it can be amazing (Roisin Murphy, Kate Bush I guess) but if the performer is too DO YOU SEE about it all, it can totally ruin it; and if it's not as clever as it thinks it is it's embarrassing for all concerned. Which is why I thought the layers of meta worked really well on Rachel Stevens' album.

Another reason I'm often suspicious of this is the way it's so often set up as opposition to "non-clever" pop: see Robyn constantly smugly going on about how she wouldn't let her record company turn her into Britney or Xtina, for example. And really, mainstream pop can be just as clever as this stuff - that JoJo line, "you just like the chance to be real" is far more clever and perceptive than anything the ever-so-meta Calvin harris will ever come up with.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Well maybe I'm assuming a distinction between clever and intelligent - formalist fun vs content fun I guess.

But for all that I seem to want to fall into this distinction quite easily it seems weak to me - like Frank says, why can't the one be a route to the other? (And the follow-up question - how come it so often isn't?)

[boyofbadgers.livejournal.com]

I think the absence of DYS is important to me when thinking abt this, but neither necessary or sufficient. In the extreme case of Kate Bush, it's her total lack of DYS that goes an awful long way to making her 'cleverness' work, yes. She simply seems to not care where the boundaries between standard and non-standard are; if it's interesting to her, she does it, and drags us along with her. Whereas e.g. Bjork is much more self-conscious about what she is doing and that makes her much less compelling to me.

OTOH, we have Roxy Music who def. did have a DYS thing going on, yet it didn't seem to detract from their general aceness and might have actually added to it.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

I think a lot of people have one or two of these acts whose cleverness grabs them in exactly the right, sympathetic way, and different angles of possibly related cleverness seem obnoxious.

[boyofbadgers.livejournal.com]

An even better example has just come on in Winamp: No Means No, who are ridiculously self-consciously clever-clever, but somehow make up for it by rocking like utter b4stards.

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Yes. What the different kinds of cleverness are though...

But are there that many non-clever pop acts? I mean, Britney's always come off as dumb in her interviews, but lots of her songs are hella clever. Most of the teenpoppers now are smart. Stefani and Ferg play dumb but are obviously really witty. I think the closest we get to actual really dumb pop is thug rap like 50 Cent, and the ign'ant southern stuff like Dem Franchize Boyz. Which I adore. Maybe this is why I feel like I have to rep so hard for morally reprehensible sex'n'violence hip-hop.

[koganbot]

Sings: "You can stand your non-standard structures under my umbrella."

Quick answer, Yes I appreciate it, No I don't look for it but then I don't look for anything in particular in all songs, No it doesn't have to get in the way of either emotional or physical impact, in fact can be a means to it, all those times Dylan inserted extra lines into verses for mesmerizing rhythmic and emotional effect, e.g. that example I gave in my book from "The Lonesome Death Of Hattie Carroll":

Who carried the dishes and took out the garbage
And never sat once at the head of the table
And didn't even talk to the people at the table
Who just cleaned up all the food from the table
And emptied the ashtrays on a whole other level

As for allusions, if you know the references this hits like a delirious but dead-accurate karate kick (Dylan again):

I may look like Robert Ford but I feel just like Jesse James

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Under this umbuberella. (I like wordplay sometimes, if Lil' Mama is doing it.)

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Well fvck, I've been beaten to the punchline. That'll show me not to read a thread before posting in it. (Not.)