Flagplanters v Cogitants

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

I pulled this out of the ILX EMP thread. It's by Scott P, who is a senior editor at Pitchfork (he edits my column, conflict of interest fans). He's summarising a current hot topic.

"...To an emerging generation of kids, music criticism is 24-hour news and leaks and mp3s and ratings and getting to things first. It's not about digesting music and it's not having meaningful conversations about it or reading someone else's ideas about it. Indeed, it's barely having conversations about it all. The democratization of music crit-- on mssg boards, mp3 blogs, etc.-- seems to not be resulting in ppl sharing more ideas with one another, but falling over another just to plant flags. And now many (specifically indie) fans seem actively suspicious of anyone who talks at length about music.

P4k's very act of printing longform reviews** and attempting to share ideas about music is, quite oddly, resented and seen to many as us cramming our opinions down someone's throat or inherently self-indulgent because ppl don't look to music writers for ideas, merely for suggestions on what to download. It's resented and kicked against because music crit is, to many of them, seemingly merely used as a tipsheet and now they can just 'listen to an mp3 and make up their own mind.'

And I fear that with mp3s giving people v. little tangible to grasp onto (no album art, liner notes, photos-- no product), the internet eliminating the need to hunt for info or sounds about/from an artist (let alone make choices about who to literally invest in), the rise of DVDs and video games as products that kids cherish, collect, and participate in w/o other distractions, and music almost exclusively something you do while you're doing something else (a background/lifestyle item) that there is little myth-making or magic in pop music these days, and as a result fewer ideas and conversations and arguments. In short, the future of writing about music, or whatever Amy's panel was called, is pretty grim because the future of getting people to invest their thoughts in music seems grim, too.

** Put it another way: P4k and its peers and contemporaries could be the first and last eZines. If the future of music crit is online, then the old print mag format-- followed by P4k, Stylus, Dusted, Drowned in Sound, CMG, etc.-- is almost N/A. Maybe I'm off but I can't recall a new eZine starting in the past few years. It's all blogs, and lately all that means is posting music or videos. The energy and ideas that departed the Voice, for example, seem to primarily have gone to writing for retail (eMusic), MTV Urge, or writing about single tracks (the very good PTW). I don't blame anyone-- you'd be foolish to start an eZine now-- but what does that say about sustaining lengthy word counts, which was the very thing the internet and the first wave of blogs got right, let alone expressing and communicating ideas?"

Thoughts? Comments? This is a huge topic, obviously.

Comments

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

(Also historically at least Pitchfork has never had much of a commitment to music conversation! For very understandable reasons of a) branding and b) bandwidth.)

[blue-russian.livejournal.com]

Part of the reason I came over to poptimists was a perceived higher standard of discussion - ie., no trolls. I think Pitchfork would have a hard time leading conversation even if it wanted to.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Yeah *now* it would need quite heavy moderation I think (even if bandwidth and server costs could be kept down. It had a message board very briefly and the bandwidth was too much). I do think that right from the start Ryan S decided that P4k's branding would be as the definitive site for new music reviews: no linking, no real acknowledgement of other stuff going on, no comments or message boards. I think Scott's talking about a genuine trend (though surely not the ONLY trend) but this 'ex cathedra' style - which was BRILLIANT marketing in the pre-Web 2.0 age - is surely why P4k is getting more flak than some places.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

(This is speculation re. P4k's message board, and it's branding)

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Actually, one thing I do like about Idolator is that they've navigated the troll/dimwit waters pretty skillfully -- you have to register (and now I guess they don't accept new commenters, so that kind of sucks) and it at least cuts down the number of people making the atmosphere downright unpleasant, if not troll-free exactly.

HOWEVER, I think one of the best things about my own comment threads on Cure for Bedbugs is the ability for teenyboppers, creeps, psychos, and Aly and AJ fans to google, post, and flutter off. (The A&A fans in particular have been occasionally VERY insightful, and a more restrictive commenting system would basically prevent them from engaging with the site at all.)

Funny thing is that the only time I get creeps is when I do my "Mislabeled Mondays" and I get a huge flood of Hype Machine types looking for the fake collaboration I've switched with a Hil-Duff track. And even the creeps are interesting, because the atmosphere at C4B doesn't let them take over -- I've got too many words to drown 'em out if they tried.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Yes, I agree - the FT comments boards take work to maintain and you get the occasional ugly moment but I'd never try and keep the googlers out. And we have the I Hate Music section as flypaper, which works well.

[dickmalone.livejournal.com]

I totally got pwn3d, in an extremely nice way, by the Aly & AJ board people on my post. Nicest critiquers on the whole internet!

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

I should write another A&A fanbaiting post (unfortunately when I'm more articulate/fairer, they don't really find the blog in the first place!)...do you have a link/email/whatever of their responses? I'd love to see them!

Re: A&A specifically, it's a connection to a Christian audience that is huge in teenpop (and probably other "OTHER MUSIC" genres) that I just don't have in my day to day life but really seek in my internet/argument/discussion life. Day to daywise, I'm just not religious, but argumentwise I always want to try to understand where people are coming from and A&A fans tend to be articulate not only about why they like the music, but what connection it has to their spirituality, and what connection that has to their lives in general. (I'm really looking forward to Dan Radosh's upcoming book on Xtian pop scene, you can search it a bit on his website (http://www.radosh.net), which is part of my daily routine and one of the best blogs around.)

[dickmalone.livejournal.com]

It's not that much, but:

http://www.alyandaj.com/boards/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=25376&whichpage=5

(at the bottom)

Just try and imagine what yr normal internet poster would have to say about me getting like three things wrong!

(and "long," geez, it's like the shortest post I've done...)

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Dagnabit just erased a mega post on SR & K-punk, clarifying I'm alluding to them with "OTHER MUSIC." Main points:

I can make teenpop or country or Paris Hilton "my music" without it becoming some sort of observational anthropology experiment. A common reaction to BAD anthro is to have a reaction like "fvck this, TOO PROBLEMATIC" which I've even heard people who study it say. There's no shortage of bad anthro in music writing, partially because the pervading attitude is a half-assed version of "fvck this...problematic!" Anthro is simply investigating the realtionship btw one group and another (not nec. an "other"), and this is key in a lot of pat dismissals of a wide variety of music by genre/blanket category (e.g. teenpop, mainstream country).

Anthro ISN'T needed, tho, when the group has been fabricated to avoid dealing with an individual idea. So if SR's "lone loony" re: teenpop is Lex, he should quote, refute, and argue, which is something he refuses to do. Ditto "poptimists"...there is a place where poptimists actually talk about what they think, it's not a "group" with generalized characteristics as much as individual view points in one place.

And the reason I care, since SR on this topic is so dumb and not worth going into fits about in the first place, is that this is sorta where I live these days, and I'd like SR to be part of that conversation instead of shutting himself off to it. If he didn't care then I wouldn't, but he's transparently dodging the topic, which means there are issues SOMEWHERE, he's just not really getting at them.

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Sorry, "lone loony re: PARIS," not teenpop. And it's also important to note how strangely most people misinterpret what Lex was writing about Paris in the first place -- something like "LA LA LA WHO CARES THE TUNES RULE." Actually he was making a pretty complex, if clearly "bring it on"-ish, social argument about the people who WON'T listen to Paris -- maybe more so than even talking about the music itself! Not that this wasn't part of it, obv.