The Poptimists Review Of The Year 2006: Dancing about Arguetexture

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Two somewhat difficult categories to administer today - the "argument of the year", difficult because only one thing really got widely nominated. And the "thing to dance (to)", difficult because nothing got nominated twice!

Here are the 'argument' nominees.

The Paris Hilton Wars: Is PH's album a triumph or a travesty? Should it be taken seriously? What are the hataz really playing at? Here's The Lex vs Plan B, and Dave Moore on Paris at Stylus.
Indie vs Emo in the Freaky Trigger Comments Box: This one will run and run. Delve in here and here.
Lordi: Worthy Eurovision Winners?: The argument that tore the Eurovision community apart - pantomime or "real rock"? And is that a good thing anyway? If anyone can point me to evidence for this argument I'd be grateful.

As for the dance to nominees...

"Monster" is a rock song about a hill and a monster.
"We Are Your Friends" is a much-loved golden oldie.
"Chicken Noodle Soup" is big on YouTube.
Magda is a tea-making DJ.
"We Share Our Mother's Health" is Scandiravian.

[Poll #893038]

You can still vote in earlier polls and nominate for the remaining categories.

Comments

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[koganbot]

Moggy, I like this discussion very much. I think you're saying that she didn't sell herself well, which means that she doesn't deserve to be a star, which is fair enough but kind of a tautology. My feeling at this point is that there's no way she could have made it except by compromising something major that I like about her (or about something). But that's neither here nor there. For the moment, let's forget which opinion of Paris you happen to hold, and which opinion I happen to hold. I'm interested in what the social scientist within you thinks are the values at play in the larger Anglo-American culture, and how the well-named Paris seems to relate to them (or violate them). Here's my take:

By even making the album she crossed some line, created discomfort, seemed essentially illegitimate.

The beginning assumption of a lot of people is that Paris simply didn't earn her pop career - learning music, playing gigs, hustling product, paying her dues - in the accepted fashion. She just felt like she could waltz in and record an album. Even if this isn't the real story, that's how people read her persona. Waltzing Paris, she is. Her first claim to media attention was a fucktape. There's something fundamentally frivolous about her, supposedly. I don't have a telly, so you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong. But you're suggesting that this frivolity is one of her selling points, right? Actually, you said she sells stupid, but my guess is that frivolity not stupidity is the issue. And then her first single is frothy breathy dance pop. I think that cements it there, and there's nothing she can do to "turn it around." Not with that voice and that image, and that song, even though the song was a hit. I don't know why this image doesn't sell albums, but for this year in Britain, it's not what the public wants. (Album did worse in Britain than on the continent. #1 in Belgium, #6 in Sweden, #29 in Britain.) The thing is, people will generally perceive Paris as lazy and frivolous and not giving a shit, so a thing like lack of posters and promo spots will seem to confirm it for you. (Is your impression of whether LeAnn Rimes gives a shit dependent on whether you see lots of posters and promo spots? Her single this year didn't even make Britain's top 20.)

Interestingly, the electronic promo kit for Paris is all about how hard Paris worked on the album. But really, that won't do it. Because that won't change her image: clips of her working with Scott Storch and Dr. Luke and Fat Joe and other big shots. The point isn't whether she actually works hard, but whether she does something that symbolically commits her to the humble, plebian, slog-it-out work ethic. Not to work itself, but to work as a fetish, a signifier. I wouldn't assume this would help her sell records, but it would probably change the nature of the criticism thrown at her. But it doesn't seem likely that she could ever become such a work symbol, even if she wanted to. No one would believe her. I'd much rather believe in, "I got my eye on you boy/I got my eye on you boy/and when I get my eye on something it's like search and destroy."

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[piratemoggy.livejournal.com]

I just wrote something really long and then realised it could be summarised by the sentence 'Paris represents the entire of my own middle-class guilt and serves as the voodoo doll of criticism I'm ultimately aiming at myself.' (change a few words and nearly everything I've ever written about her could be a rant at myself) Basically, she has turned herself into a brand and I hate that brand very passionately, which probably suggests something wrong my own psychology or something, in that whilst I'd dearly love to grab Paris and scream at her about poverty and genocide, I am essentially no better and to be honest, probably worse, since she at least acknowledges what she is etc. I think that goes for a lot of people, Brit and American but that it's felt most acutely in Britain. The rest of Europe is largely untroubled by her because of the language barrier- she does not seem like one of them, I suspect.

I think, if Paris can not be you, then there's a plausible chance you could like her. If she could be you, you can't. If you want to be her... well that's a whole bag of interesting love/hate stuff. I agree about her never being a plausible icon of hard work (although if Princess Diana can manage it, anything is probably possible, good god) but my gut feeling is to say 'well then what the hell's she doing there?' I dunno, sociologically I see Paris Hilton's popularity as something that's a symptom of a nasty illness Anglo-American (and indeed most Western/Northern/Whatever the hell you call it these days cultures) society has and we've got her as a glorious martyr to it all, really- she's easy enough to hate, same as Bush and Blair are, so it can't be us etc. (different demographic, same illness) I don't think it'd be cured by people liking her, because I think she's a poisonous bint completing the commercialisation/de-intellectualisation/warping of my generation of females that began with the Spice Girls but hating on her probably isn't the answer, either, for vaguely the same reasons the War on Terror isn't working and won't work.

I mean... she did deserve to fail because she didn't do it right. If she'd done a pop album and been sparkling and charming and said how much she enjoyed doing it, rather than being kinda louche and talking about her brand and that she'd wanted to be a popstar since she was a little girl (this is too common a dream to be anything other than voodoo doll fuel) and had in any way convinced me that she wanted to do anything other than do a few shows, I might've relaxed my attitude about her. She can't afford to do that, because hating Paris Hilton is a big part of what gets her paid.

LeAnn Rimes comparison... to be honest I don't know what the hell LeAnn Rimes does these days, it's a very small minority in the UK that want her music, I suspect and they're happily fed off the fanbase. I and everyone else knew about Paris Hilton's album coming out- it was everywhere but it was just a piece of celebrity gossip, not music. Putting something on the electronic promo bit that most people don't see doesn't do it for the majority of people that might buy her CD (I count myself as one of those- I did vaguely consider buying it as a pop curio but decided I couldn't really face doing it) who might be bought over by Paris turning up somewhere and really talking about her single like she knows what it is. I'm not really asking for talent or musical knowledge, she could just say 'well we went into the studio and this song stood out as something I really liked off the album, it's something I'd listen to myself and I think it's cool' -anything to make it all seem more accessible and less cynical.

[cont., comment was too long to post as one]

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[piratemoggy.livejournal.com]

[pt. 2]
Mind you, not having a telly, I actually have no idea what she did with regards to that. She may have said something to that effect. The only thing I can remember her saying about her album is that there was a track on it called 'Blind Star' (yer wot? etc.) about P!nk, in response to 'Stupid Girls.'

I think my problem really, possibly along with some other Paris-haters (I would hypothesise that for the vast majority of people who hate Paris, she's become the Britney figure that nu-metal created for most people, whereby she was some kind of vacuous stereotype who might well be Satan with her mainstream-ness and oh my god pop etc.) is that she's totally alien and at once rather too close to home. I can't imagine having that much money and swanning around and celebrity parties... but I can imagine going down the pub every night on my parents' money (being a student) and really, she makes me very uncomfortable. I can't relate to her attitude about it, though.

I think the other thing is that... I don't care how hard she works. No one deserves that much. Bill Gates doesn't deserve his money, Tony Blair doesn't deserve his money, Noam Chomsky doesn't deserve his money. I can't just look at her and think 'she's working really hard to do what she wants' because I don't think anyone could justify getting what she appears to want. Maybe the fucktape screwed her up (pun unintended)and it's some kind of self-reassurance trip but what she does says 'I am a cynical businesswoman and I'm expoiting you and you love it.' Which is difficult for a nation of cynics to swallow and some kind of base moral stops (most of) the sort of people who buy CDs thinking that's alright, it's her business plan whereas people who might fall for that wouldn't pay for the CD, I suspect.

I'm falling asleep, so this probably reads like a three-year-old dribbled it.

My basic point was... Paris just represents something I (and I assume other people) feel really bad about and I (and a lot of other people) really can't face thinking about it enough to allot her any respect/affection. Basically, I can't relate to Paris and I can't detach her, either.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

Sorry to stick this between your two posts. You COULD yell at Paris about genocide and poverty if you had grounds to do so -- she has more means to do something about it than you do, and she IS in a different economic class, so not all of this is directly self-directed. And all of this hand-wringing may have nothing to do with her music per se, but it has something to do with HER, and part of the trouble in this argument is realizing that to be honest (and not sound like a shithead, which you certainly don't) at some level you have to grapple with everything, but you also have to know how to choose your battles. One problem Paris presents on this album, plain and simple, is that SHE WANTS YOU TO LIKE HER. She is absolutely likeable throughout (to me). And its quite possible that in connecting to this album, as I have -- and this has as much to do with the discussion of the album as it does with the album itself, so there's s'more confusion -- you might also be connecting to someone you could also yell about genocide to. And by yelling at her you're yelling at someone with more (economic) means to do something about, say, poverty than yelling at yourself about it, which you could also do.

Here's the thing: I'm pretty sure that just about NO ONE wants to be Paris. Paris is rarely (if ever) used as a symbol of, for instance, success -- most often, she's portrayed as a mutant by-product of..."capitalism," or something. Except it's NOT capitalism, because the desired work ethic most commonly embraced in these arguments is essentially capitalist. Someone SHOULD be able to be a successful -- and this means rich and famous -- pop star, just not her. So one place to stick a voodoo needle in is thinking, for instance, is it OK for anyone to be a "pop star"? What does my judgment of Paris Hilton as a pop star say about how I feel about other artists I enjoy and support? How is she (legitimately) different from them (and she may be, I just think most people don't want to ask that honestly)?

Also crucial is that Paris Hilton has not made herself into a martyr, and no one is particularly eager to do it for her, though I get the sense that lots of people would like to burn her at the stake. Which wouldn't by definition make her a martyr, mind.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[mcarratala.livejournal.com]

Exactly – the argument about Paris elides socialist (nobody should be that rich) and Protestant-work-ethic capitalist (you should only be that rich if you do the work) arguments, although as most people don't have hard ideological mental structures, it's often a bit of both. Maybe we should compare Paris to George W: both aristocrats, yet one has successfully convinced the common folk that he's one of them, while the other is mocked-but-profitable symbol of untamed decadence.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

I think that's dangerous, though -- if I wanted to criticize W, I'd focus on his policies, not his social position. The difference is, W is not JUST a symbol, and he shouldn't have his politics projected onto him, as is usually the case with Paris. Paris's own politics are unclear, and irrelevant to the extent that she doesn't have a political agenda (or followers) and isn't running for office. But if being born rich is wrong, all gripes should probably be directed at the institution that produced her (and at guys like W, who has done more for her tax bracket than any president I know of. Fortunately, Paris isn't singing about her tax bracket -- and that's not even a joke, because K-Fed came out with an equally-maligned album that WAS mostly him rapping about his tax bracket, which was part of the reason I hated it so much, along with it generally sucking).

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[skyecaptain.livejournal.com]

(well, not really "dangerous," more like "I wouldn't make that comparison.")

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

What's really interesting about the Paris Riots is the way she always ends up in a political framework! I mean, if she decided to "do something" about poverty or genocide that would be nice, but why is it incumbent on her to do anything?* Purely because she's rich? Then why don't we go after any number of popstars - or indeed Paris's parents, who are after all the source of the money. (nb: Paris has said that since she turned 18, she hasn't accepted any money from her parents.) It's funny, the crux of Paris arguments always seems to be what she represents, what she "says" about "society" - and there is a place for this, but it just seems to dominate the argument in a way it wouldn't if we were talking about Britney Spears, Beyoncé, Kylie Minogue, Justin Timberlake etc etc.

*what we do know is what various elected representatives, whose responsibility these things are, have/haven't done, and it is THEM we should be grabbing by the lapels and shouting at.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[piratemoggy.livejournal.com]

I just noticed how my comment-essay totally failed to be a reponse to your comment and was largely an introspective rant. Err, sorry about that, I'll try again when I'm marginally more awake.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[koganbot]

No need to apologize. You're always insightful, whatever tack you take. (Look forward to continuing this discussion, but it may take a while to get back to it.)

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[piratemoggy.livejournal.com]

Right, feeling marginally more together now.

Non-relevant to your comment thought-
I've been giving Paris' album a re-listen today and originally wondered what I found (musically) objectional about it, (I was actually thinking 'this sounds like Margaret Berger redux') due to having started at 'Heartbeat' but when it got to her cover of 'Do You Think I'm Sexy' and the first five tracks of the album (I have my media player set to loop things) I suddenly remembered how much a lot of it completely turned me off. I'd kind of prefer to think she put no work whatsoever into a lot of the tracks and that the people she was working with just thought she was a joke, because to me the tracks seem pretty crap and she's an even worse popstar than I thought if they were serious effort but that, of course, is gut taste reaction and entirely subjective.

In response to what you said, I've looked at what I said last night and realised it's not such irredeemable dribble as I thought it was (or not entirely, anyway) but I failed to discuss properly what I wanted to. My perception of the Paris progression would be thus:
-Person hears Paris record
-Person thinks is not awful
-At this point, progression splits into 'Paris fans' and 'Paris haters,' obviously we're talking about the haters to a large degree here and so that's what I'm talking about for the rest of this "progression"
-Person wrestles to reconcile opinion of Paris Hilton The Socialite Brand with Stars Are Blind The Quite Good Pop Song By Paris Hilton
If Paris could have made herself into a pop star via the promo etc. she would have been far more acceptable to people than as Paris The Socialite With A Pop Record. Paris The Socialite With A Pop Record isn't something that a lot of people will brook much fuss about, because its just Paris The Socialite holding a CD and becomes the equivalent, to some degree, of Katie Price and Peter Andre's recent release. Jordan/Katie Price is kind of an interesting parallel with Paris, in Brit terms, actually: famous for a sex tape (by no means do all page 3 models become as famous as she did, even if they do have grotesquely surgically enhanced jugs) she's gone on to become something else and also had a stab at a pop career in a vaguely similar way to Paris; Katie's attempt flopped faster and had a smaller budget but that's maybe why Paris also flopped in Britain and why she really isn't popular. I could actually stomach buying something by Jordan if it sounded like the Paris album (or specifically, if she released 'Heartbeat' or 'Screwed,' both of which would fit reasonably well) but I get a sort of celebrity fatigue regarding Paris. I think it's possible that because we have our own breed of Paris-ite in Britain, we find her kind of unnecessary, by and large and so she doesn't especially trouble us to hate or love. We also, of course, have Posh Spice, when all else fails.

I might just be being comedically British here but I think Paris is just something very alien to a lot of people here, same as if we exported Jordan everyone would go 'Oh my god, the British really hang on everything this bimboid does' we (taking "we" to mean "me and other comedically British people") look at Paris and say 'Oh my god, she's really big news in the US' whilst reading an article about Jordan and Peter's new house in heat magazine. I can't specifically put my finger on what separates Jordan/Katie and Paris for me and I think it probably is something unpleasantly snobby about inherited wealth (since really, I ought to be annoyed far more by a woman who plays a part in the page three industry, something I object to a lot) but somehow, Jordan's ridiculous, frothy, frivolous and stupid but fun, where Paris fails to be fun.

I don't know whether Paris is held in the US in the same way Jordan's held in the UK (with Jordan, one article will be saying how nice and normal and clever she really is and the next will be screaming what a tramp she is and how much she should fuck off and die, which I suspect is pretty similar to Paris' reception in the US?) but if she is... well I'm not sure what it says but I think that's something vaguely important in sociological terms.

Re: Shitheads March To Victory

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

key diff between Paris and Jordan/Vicky B is class - Paris, as bimba as she plays it, convinces as nu-aristocracy (cf Marie Antoinette) because she was born into wealth and had the consequent expensive upbringing. (I suspect this is v key to understanding how she perfected her trademark blank gaze.) Vicky B was only ever posh in the ironic sense, and of course Jordan is Working Class Heroine &c - which means they both get subjected to the classic meeja Janus-face when it comes to working class women, "brava, she has worked hard for her money" vs "what a slut eh?". In both cases though media commentary is condescending, it acts like it's superior to J and VB. It can't do this with Paris because nothing about her lifestyle is actually dependent on the media.