Punk

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

This is a question for people who didn't experience punk firsthand (sorry o wise eldersaurs!)

How did the ideas/legacy/presence of punk affect your listening to and thinking about music?

(I didn't say it was a small question)

And do you still feel it as a presence within pop music and culture? Does it affect current music? Does it affect how you approach the music that came before it?

I'm interested in 'my' generation of listeners (30somethings) but also especially in 20somethings and younger - and in British people especially.

Comments

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Its influence was entirely negative for the six months or so I thought I 'should' like it! Then I realised I really detested it, just on a sonic level, couldn't care less about the politics, and found it slightly...unhygienic. That canon Sex Pistols album is one of the worst things I have EVER HEARD. And since then it has not crossed my mind except for the occasional rockist-baiting declaration of Avril Lavigne/tATu/Lindsay Lohan as "totes punk rock" (I have no idea what I mean by this as it's clearly one of those words with a gazillion defns depending who you talk to, and I don't care enough to ponder it too deeply).

It clearly signifies lots of approved things for many people my age though - it is usually a sign that I should not pay attention to anything they say on the subject of music.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Hurrah a comment!

I don't expect many kids nowadays are that into the Sex Pistols, but I'm curious as to whether the notion of punk as a rebellious or purifying or authentic (these 3 words not wholly connectable obv!) force is a sustained one today or whether people have "got over it".

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

Rebellious and authentic, definitely, plus that annoying "dangerous" signifier - maybe more for certain people my age, and various older taste-makers (ie music crits)? No doubt it is prevalent amongst ver kidz as well but I suspect - HOPE! - that as many kidz dismiss it as old people's music. I have never come across the idea of punk as purifying and have no idea how that would even work.

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

That's interesting cos this was a powerful part of punk when I first encountered it - the idea of 1976/7 as "year zero", either a complete destruction of what had gone before or a return to first principles. This was obviously more powerful 10 years after the fact than it would be thirty years after, but without that sense of upheaval I think claims made (to and by new listeners) about rebellion and authenticity are weirdly unrooted.

AN OLD PERSON RIOTS

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

the idea of "old people's music" as intrinsically rubbish is something of a punk meme obv, taken up from 60s rock and turned against it

lex what is yr opinion of joy division? (i am tryin to write abt em RIGHT NOW)

(haha "unhygenic")

"complete destruction of what had gone before or a return to first principles"

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

in other words it sorta requires you to KNOW ALL PRIOR HISTORY and yet be FREE FROM ALL PRIOR HISTORY

which is a trick very rarely achieved i think -- it's kind of a HUGE GIANT advantage having lived through it, bcz i am so underawed by all the recaps

Re: "complete destruction of what had gone before or a return to first principles"

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Isn't everyone underawed by the recaps though?

The paradox is - if a year zero event can happen once it can happen again BUT in order for a subsequent YZ event to happen it must wipe out its predecessor, which is impossible - it is marching under the banner of said predecessor.

Re: AN OLD PERSON RIOTS

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

punk = era when i wz more or less lex's age and definitely lexishly year-zero in attitude!

anyway BACK TO THE YOUNG-o-DONS

julian temple ton cul est a moi

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

by recaps i meant retellings of the "original" 77 story, not "o hai we r nu-punk" x 5 every year -- everyone thinks latter lame obv, former gets too much free pass (except from me)

Re: AN OLD PERSON RIOTS

[alexmacpherson.livejournal.com]

I have only heard the famous song! I like it but need not hear it ever again, and definitely prefer the Nouvelle Vague version. I was quite shocked to discover recently that they were the same people as New Order.

[jauntyalan.livejournal.com]

can i go out on a limb and say that punk was the last (post war) rebellious youth movement and that everything after that has built on that established platform - no longer needing to say 'fuck you i won't do what you tell me (to do)' (except by the silly people who felt the unnecessary need to actually say that) but just going on to say 'and this is the new thing X that we're doing'. it's really odd to see how "shocked" grownups act in the 50/60/70s due to the antics of the kids. and i don't think that since then 80s/90s we've had anything like it. and are not likely to.

but it was NOT about authenticity.

[jauntyalan.livejournal.com]

punk is on the edge of my musical memory. but i am on more solid ground with post-punk/new wave (i was 8 in 77). the primary emotion i get from punk at that time is a visceral energy.

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

I'm having trouble accessing lj at the moment, this page took about five minutes to load fully!

I latched on to Punk as a 'history project' big time in my first year of uni - before that I was firstly aware of it as something that Elastica etc had 'copied', & latterly as this big rebellion against rock dinosaurs. However I never really enthused about the music itself (I still don't really like the Sex Pistols as much as PiL), as once I started to investigate punk in any depth I realised that it was later stuff eg Strangers/Wire that both Elastica and myself preferred. Music in not living up to hype shocker.

[jauntyalan.livejournal.com]

(obv i'm discounting, perhaps unfairly, parental outrage at acid house - fear of a new drug - and illegal orbital raves, which was the (non) ASBO issue of the day.)

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

this is the "help me write my p!tchf0rk column" thread, right? ;)

PUNK for me, gave a distrust of PROG (still working through) and also THE MAN (pretty much gotten over now).

interestingly i have 0 recollection of punk-punk at the time (being *just* too young), but everything that came after good or bad (jam, police, adam etcetc) were the foundations of my music love. i guess i didn't rly know about '76 punk til the latelate 80s (can that be right?)...

[carsmilesteve.livejournal.com]

the only music i can rly remember from 1977 is mull of kintyre (i was THREE AND A HALF, what do you expect!!!!), which we used to sing "mull of kin-tiger"

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

Haha yes WELL SPOTTED it is indeed that time of thee month.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

Avril Lavigne - US punk != UK punk.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

I remember a slightly older neighbourhood kid showing me the cover of Frigging in the Rigging back in the day. But I was in Hong Kong until the middle of '77, so didn't directly experience anything before that.

I didn't mind the music (once I was a bit older), as I regarded it as a sped up loud version of '50s rock'n'roll which I liked. But I didn't particularly like the obnoxiousness, faux or otherwise. It's so-called DIY ethic didn't really rub off because when I was an young teenager we were doing it ourselves anyway, and we were more influenced by rock and early metal. And I preferred ska to punk anyway.

If it inspired people to form bands and write songs, then great, but it was more of a short-lived hyped-up fashion statement. On the other hand, it was a time when there were a lot of people about who really couldn't see how the '80s was going to be any better than the '70s, so the "no future" thing appealed to them.

The bands who became most successful starting in the punk era only really adopted it as a fashion statement before going on to do their own thing - e.g. the Police. Apart from the Sex Pistols (where music wasn't really the primary driver) I can't think of any really successful bands in the genre. Perhaps success wasn't the point, but you'd think there would be some longer-running and financially sound punk bands if it were a serious genre, especially given all the '80s bands/singers touring their hits in the past few years. Maybe it's harder to differentiate the music from various styles of rock.

I remember CRASS and Dead Kennedys, but neither of those were really UK punk bands. I guess The Damned did OK in the genre, but weren't really what I'd call a punk band. Exploited and the Anti Nowhere League are more what I'd call punk bands, but they didn't really get anywhere and the mysogynist lyrics probably didn't help.

(I'm not talking about American punk rock cos that's a whole other scene).

Me & the received notion of punk

[(Anonymous)]

Missed punk by dint of being in far-flung places as well as being too young. Arrived back in the UK, aged 13, in 1984 as fledgling classic rock fan. Over the next two years struggled to like Cream, Led Zep etc or Hendrix beyond the singles... and meanwhile fell in love with the Ramones and the Mary Chain. So when the 10 years of punk barrage arrived in the NME in early 86, I was totally willing to absorb it, but more in terms of 'values' than any particular interest in actual original punkster bands. And that ideology, as I read it, has stuck with me. I think that's because it was a good fit for what I actually like, rather than because it was so persuasive – I'm naturally anti-noodling, grandiosity, technique for its own sake (as I would see it), pro-short songs & so on. In the succeeding two decades, my views on art and architecture (for instance) flipped almost entirely, but my basic approach to music hardly at all. I'm still prog-phobic (which applies as much to Radiohead as Yes) and not the least bit apologetic about it... -mcarratala

[glamwhorebunni.livejournal.com]

Anyway. I like punk. It's fast and energetic and great fun to dance to. It's like Happy Hardcore in that respect, it's just something I can't help but feel smiley and bouncy to.

I guess that I feel it's most lasting effect is speeding music up, putting energy into it? I fully support this, faster music is more fun.

Although I maintain you can experience punk firsthand today, and that there are punk bands out there currently making music.


I'm currently playing the Dropkick Murphys.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

Dropkick Murphys aren't punk as what is meant by this thread - the whole US punk thing evolved separately from the UK scene.

[sbp.livejournal.com]

So do the Clash count as punk, or the "going on to do their own thing" part of my argument?

[glamwhorebunni.livejournal.com]

The album I listened to the Dropkicks was the Toy Dolls, if that helps...

Anyway, there are definite musical similarities between UK Punk and US Punk Rock. You can argue about how they evolved, but it's the short hard fast loud that makes it punk.

[perfectputsch.livejournal.com]

the punk idea wasnt anything that new really - the diy stripped down garage thing of the 60s was already being celebrated in the early 70s with the "nuggets" compilations but i guess all the newspaper headlines brought it to the mainstream and maybe people started to feel that they didnt have to be virtuosos like Yes to make good music. and also people realised that Yes were shit...

its just another wave of teenage rebellion in the great history of teenage rebellion, but i think its beautiful.

i think it did a lot for women in music too because it was quite an asexual phenomenon - all that s&m stuff wasnt really about sex and certainly not about being conventionally sexy, and the girls could have really short hair or look like Poly Styrene and people thought that was cool. women weren't being judged primarily on sexual allure, and also women screaming and shrieking and throwing themselves around a stage in an unladylike fashion was suddenly cool and kicked ass, so it changed the way we view women in music i think, paved the way for riot grrl. its a far cry from the motown girl groups in matching dresses made to smile sweetly and firmly in the control of their managers. so yeah i think it opened up opportunities for women because girls decided that if they didnt want to be groupies or Pans People or whatever, then that was fine and they could do their own thing instead. sexy, unsexy, soft, abrasive, quiet, loud, sing about fucking, sing about politics, whatever...

because punk seems kind of old now there's a lot of ironic, post-modern anti-punk talk but thats just people trying to be cool and contrary if you ask me. it'll probably come around again in this relentless cycle of things. i guess stuff just looks more annoying if the old farts at Mojo like it. but i'm all for it.