From the wreck of the Popism thread...

[freakytigger.livejournal.com]

OK a 'rockist' sez:
Bob Dylan is better than Charlotte Church. That's just a fact.

A 'popist' sez:

No way, boring Bob is rubbish compared to Charlotte Church. That's just a fact.

Here's what I actually think:

Listening to music is made up of a series of moments, like coin tosses or dice throws. At any given moment I might find Bob suits me better, or Charlotte. Over time, it's likely Bob will win a lot more often than Charlotte. But during those moments when I want Charlotte, no amount of Bob will suffice. The 'rockist' or 'rockist-about-pop' mistake is to imagine that the 'over time' is what matters, not the moment.

(For 'Bob' and 'Charlotte' insert whoever you want.)

This third point of view is, you'll notice, considerably less snappy than the other two.

-- Tom (freakytrigger@gmail.com), October 20th, 2005 1:59 PM. (Groke) (later) (link)

So re-reading this I wonder if it's statin' the bleedin' obvious or if there's anything in it, I mean in terms of the conception of the fixity of taste and judgement being a big divider....

Comments

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Bob is rubbige.

[barrysarll.livejournal.com]

Well, he was a good songwriter, but a lousy performer. And Charlotte quite objectively has better t1ts.

(It is kinda stating the obvious, but it's the sort of obvious which a depressing number of people seem unable to grasp, and thus worthwhile)

[katstevens.livejournal.com]

Bob = miserable cnut moaning on about STUFF
Char = bubbly taff who belts out choones about FUN

Which would you rather go fer a pint with etc

Oh man. Pint. Gaaaaaaah

[barrysarll.livejournal.com]

Short answer: I'd rather go for a pint. But yes, Charlotte would be fun while Bob would just be an enigmatic tosser. You'd ask what he wanted and he'd start on some elliptical ramble about Mr Jones.

[dubdobdee.livejournal.com]

i like bob better but that is bcz i think he works at "ENERGY IN THE MOMENT" a great deal more (than almost anyone) --> however i like improv, so i wd say that

to be fair to CC, i'm not sure i've heard a millisecond of her (popstyle) music yet

"rockism" in this formulation is something: these are the (momentary brilliant thrillpowered) fragments (garnered from my lovely youthul yesteryear) i haf shored up against my ruin RETIREMENT: ie music-as-reliable-pension

dylan IS more bankable longer possibly -- but his momentary thrillpower elements (WEARING CUBAN HEELS!) seem to the ones that ppl teach themselves to FORGET abt

I can't help myself, I need professional help

[barrysarll.livejournal.com]

CC's 'Crazy Chick' was played at Poptimism! It is fun, but she's still better than her records.

I've never really had to teach myself anything when it came to Dylan - at an early age, wise beyond my years, I asked 'Mummy, why is this man on a record when he can't sing?' But then later, I learned that various songs I did like had been written by him, and then sung by people who could.

With very rare exceptions, improv makes me want to eat tables.

[catsgomiaow.livejournal.com]

Actually that explanation works very, very well - for me, at least. Although you saying Bob and Charlotte has now made me think of Lost In Translation!

[catsgomiaow.livejournal.com]

Also the "the moment" thing is THE VERY ESSENCE OF ROMANTICISM etc etc. Ah student days.

[martinskidmore.livejournal.com]

This is a better-expressed version of something like I've been saying for ages about the fucking test of time (so my ideas have clearly stood the test of oh fuck ourobouros moment). The test of time angle can be an interesting thing to consider, but it is NOT automatically more right (whatever that would mean), and it is NOT automatically more interesting, and what we have NOW is absolutely worth thought and discussion irrespective of whether we'll think the same tomorrow or in ten years. All we've got now is our current perspective, and what's happening now is the most interesting thing to examine, so any test of time is of no use at all there.

I love Dylan's old stuff, and like Mark I don't know that I have heard any Charlotte Church pop music.