poptimists | Let's talk about BALLADS

Let's talk about BALLADS

The giveaway CD for Thursday's Poptimism will be an ALL-BALLAD special. I'm taking here about the modern usage of the word to mean 'slow song', rather than the older 'story song'.

Ballads seem to get short shrift from Poptimists - criticisms of pop or R&B albums, for instance, often turn on a "too many ballads" claim. The list of NOW poll winners here is short on them too (Cyndi Lauper's "Time After Time", Portishead's "Glory Box", maybe a couple of others).

What are some of your favourite ballads? Do you have trouble enjoying slow pop songs? Why do you think that is, if so? Do some genres suit 'ballads' better than others? (Some of the people who complain about R&B ballads might be Low or Will Oldham fans, for instance!) When does a song stop being a ballad? And so on - plenty to talk about, I'm sure.

I do want ballad recommendations, however the giveaway CD has already been made and is GREBT, a chronological journey through balladry from the 50s to last week.

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My favourite ballads are probably prefixed by the word 'power', which I would say indicated a rush and and a push at some stage, some dynamism whatsoever, the lack of which is I think what most people would dislike about the generic ballad.

Obv. the main poptimist complaint = you can't dance to it!

Tomorrow?

Does the CD have 'Irreplaceable' on it? That is the greatest ballad of the year I think!

I love love love ballads - they are often done badly by pop/r&b acts but nowhere near as often as most assume. In fact prior to this year Beyoncé was one of the few r&b divas to be consistently bad at ballads. My favourite song by any given pop act will tend to be a ballad - 'Everytime', 'Run For Cover', 'Viva Forever'...

I am not giving away what is or isn't on the CD, the Lex. I will just say "To the left, to the left, to the left."

Oops! Changed it.

Everything you own in a box to the left!

A point which I think Greg made on a past Now poll: the best ballads are those which are secretly bangers and vice versa, maintaining the link between the two poles, eroding the opposition between them. Thus, 'Unbreak My Heart' and many many more.

I love ballads - so many of my favourite records are soul or country songs that would surely count in this category. It doesn't seem so much the strength of pop, for me, but I love Leave Right Now and Back For Good, for example, as much as any pop records of the last 10 years or so.

counts?: billy jo mcallister jumped of the Talahatchee Bri-idge

Using the giveaway CD as a guide. (take it as a tracklist clue if you like)

1. Infidelity (of other)
2. Being on the wrong side of a historical event.
3. Sexual proposition
4. Difficulty of serving celestial body (may be metaphor)
5. Infidelity (of other)
6. Sexual satisfaction
7. Pledge of love
8. Romantic rejection, aftermath of.
9. Existential collapse via romantic rejection
10. Sympathising with rival in love triangle
11. Romantic rejection, aftermath of.
12. Pledge of love
13. Infidelity (of self)
14. Contemplation of maternal life choices
15. Celebration of ghetto life.
16. Bad relationship, emotional scars of. (hurt)
17. Bad relationship, emotional scars of. (rueful)
18. Philosophy of self-actualisation.
19. Bad relationship, ending of. (defiant)
20. Reaction to political criticism.

so it's all wedding present songs then?

i would say NO but i'm not sure why -- i think it may be a rhythmic thing (tiny element of syncopation = no longer a ballad)

(i'm not saying everyone should adopt this freak of taxonomy, just saying that i appear to use it) (based on "time after time")

My position on ballads is roughly the same as my position on acoustic guitar songs. They're something that most people seem tempted to do at some point, despite being very very difficult to do well and very easy to do incredibly badly. Most obviously fall into the latter category, mostly to do with the songwriters/arrangers just not being good enough and ballads tend to flaunt that inadequacy more harder/faster songs.

Only #15.

The acoustic ballad, of course, doubles the probability of the record being shit.

I haven't listened to it for ages so I may be misremembering it!

I think maybe some ballads are ALSO not-ballads though, dependent on context. "Irreplaceable", which the Lex mentions above, is quite an upbeat thing really except in the context of Beyonce's album in which it is clearly in place as 'a ballad'.

Have you never heard of the ERECTION SECTION?

criticisms of pop or R&B albums, for instance, often turn on a "too many ballads" claim
I recognise myself in this comment up to a point (I also like Low quite a bit). But w.r.t. R&B I've noticed a sea change* in recent years, roughly beginning with Brandy's Full Moon LP (and the last Aaliyah LP, although I didn't hear that in full until a year ago) where the ballads suddenly started clicking and becoming my favourite tracks. Now, I'd much rather listen to e.g. Beyonce's vocal stylings on a ballad than on a banger.

*don't now if it's me that's changed or the ballads just got less boring!

Slightly different story with solo white male singers: I've always liked Elton John's 70s ballads. George Michael's at his best on songs like "Careless Whisper", "Jesus To A Child" and, especially "You Have Been Loved" (I'm far less enamoured of his sex jams). Daniel Bedingfield's "If You're Not The One" was in my top 5 songs of 2002 ('though his later attempts to repeat the success of this song fell flat). Robbie Williams is also at his best being sensitive: "Angels", "Strong", "Feel", "She's The One".

Can't stand boyband ballads however, except "Mandy" (and prefer B. Manilow version anyway). But then I can't stand boybands at any speed as you've probably worked out by now.

Reasons I don't like ballads much:

1) Certain inadequacies relating to the subject matter, historically (hysterically!)
2) They tend to be ego-centric without being 'fun' or danceable - and with that latter element missing i'm not interested in someone else's emotional outpourings

that MIGHT be all it is. i appreciate many more of them these days. a lot of big hit ballads from the 80s and 90s i like now largely for the general nostalgia element e.g. Madonna's slowies. as ever there's a tendency to prefer female-sung ones rather than those from male counterparts - but this applies to my pop tastes generally.

Idiot Ed on the other place has just made the point that most people consider Total Eclipse of The Heart to be a balls, which I just can't square, it seems to break free even of the realms of 'power ballad'.

When I say "balls", I mean "ballad". Not all the time, mind, just there.

Your favourite Paris Hilton song, may I remind you, is her sole ballad.

(listed here roughly chronologically)

Smokey Robinson & The Miracles - Ooo Baby Baby
The Shangri-Las - Past Present & Future
David Bowie - Life on Mars?
The Carpenters - Goodbye To Love
Nilsson - Without You
Michael Jackson - Ain't No Sunshine
Elton John - Someone Saved My Life Tonight
The Commodores - Sail On
Robert Wyatt - Shipbuilding
Crowded House - Don't Dream It's Over
Mazzy Star - Fade Into You

11 of out 60 is a probably a good measure of my ballad love.

TOTAL ECLIPSE OF THE HEART.

That is all.

Actually perhaps that was not quite explicit enough: I love this song, it is brilliant, and I normally hate ballads for the dancing reason, above.

I think I fit almost exactly into the syndrome Tom was describing: I'm indescribably bored by that Rihanna slowie that's around at the moment, whereas I loved SOS. The same goes for most recent(ish) pop (with expections: 2 Become 1, Stay Another Day, & is Back For Good a ballad?) On the other hand, when it comes to George Jones, or Nick Cave, or James Carr, or even Yo La Tengo, I'm always figuring that the slow numbers are going to be the best. - MCarratala

#20 better be what MattDC clued me up to thinking it is!

I couldn't possibly comment. If I have enough to drink I might actually play it.

(Also THIS SONG NEEDS A BOSH VERSION).

My favourite ballads, random order, yet numbered anyhow:

1. Every Rose Has It's Thorn - Poison
2. The Ballad of Jayne - LA Guns
3. Only My Heart Talking - Alice Cooper
4. How You Gonna See Me Now? - Alice Cooper
5. Always - Bon Jovi
6. I'll Be There For You - Bon Jovi
7. I'll Be Alright Without You - Journey
8. I Remember You - Skid Row
9. Don't Know What You Got ('Til It's Gone) - Cinderella
10. Slipping Away - Junkyard
11. I Don't Wanna Miss A Thing - Aerosmith
12. Carrie - Europe
13. Nothing Else Matters - Metallica
14. Only Time Will Tell - Poison
15. Seize the Day - Avenged Sevenfold
16. Yesterdays - Guns'N'Roses
17. Alone - Heart
18. Signs - Tesla (as it's acoustic)
19. Tuesday's Gone - Lynryd Skynyrd

Nilsson gets my vote. Also Eternal Flame, that 10CC song, Shakespear's Sister...

"Time After Time" is a ballad. It is slow and has the get-misty factor.

There is a great remixed version of that Rihanna slowie with reggae beat added, which means it is no longer ballad. (Original version of Rihanna slowie obv. not on Tom's playlist as there was no entry for "Totally self-absorbed, compulsive, and pathological immersion in one's own 'guilt.'")

Ballads are probably my favourite genre - I've been planning for a long time to make some sort of POPTIMISTS GUIDE TO BALLADS but never quite got round to it?

I actually believe fairly firmly that the ballad (at least the Pop/R'n'B ballad) isn't really a genre that's been explored properly yet, there does seem a funny shortage of songs like 'Whole Lotta History' which combine that modern cross-media complex pop band thing* with totally functionalist** Sad Strings and that double-take of an obvious truth truly received for the first time I've kinda talked about re: Always on my Mind. GG's 'Unchained Melody' did this too, at least pre-Jordan revelations; 'Leave Right Now' is an example of a great ballad that doesn't go down this route at all. All I am maybe saying is: "where is the pop Cat Power?" - I am pretty sure if the near-perfected sonics of the 00s pop ballad could be mixed (popularly!) with a Real Popstar who refused to be alright (Kelly Calrkson is probably closest?) the results could build amazing on amazing?

*: Ie. that Who Is Singing This becomes what's used as a step to and then joyfully overcome in the lift to universality... perhaps it's just that I'm more aware of the elaborate narratives of Nervous White Popstars which makes the better GA ballads sound so near-unique to me - I know Lex likes a lot of R'n'B ballads which I think I need more context *cough his explanation post* to appreciate.

**: Ballads are kind of like eurotrance I think, in that if the appeal doesn't seem objective they sort of haven't worked.

Have you heard '3/9 with quartet'?

(offline mostlyconnect)

That is really OTM! I will try and hear this raggae thing.

I am really bummed about not being able to make this poptimism - ballads!

You're right, the reggae beat does perk it up no end. Reggaefied rnb, along the lines of the version of You Don't Know My Name, is turning out to be an intriguing business.

Some good ballads:

The Animals "House of the Rising Sun"
Bobby Bare "Detroit City"
James Brown "I Lost Someone"
James Brown "Prisoner of Love" (version on Live at the Apollo Vol. 2)
Mariah Carey "Can't Let Go" (esp. the live version on Unplugged)
The Carpenters "Superstar"
Kelly Clarkson "Because of You"
Skeeter Davis "The End of the World"
Hilary Duff "Fly"
Eminem "Stan"
Fleetwood Mac "Gold Dust Woman"
Gloria Estefan & the Miami Sound Machine "I Can't Stay Away From You"
LeAnn Rimes "No Way Out"
Rosie & the Originals "Angel Baby"
The Shangri-Las "I Can Never Go Home Anymore"
The Shangri-Las "Out in the Streets"
The Shangri-Las "Remember (Walking in the Sand)"
Ashlee Simpson "Undiscovered"
Irma Thomas "Ruler of My Heart"
The Wailers "And I Love Her"
The Wailers "Ruddie Boy"

My criterion was "Is it a slow dance," except I disqualified the Velvet Undergroud's "Heroin" because the idea of people dancing cheek-to-cheek to it totally disturbs me. (But why then did I retain "Stan"?) "The Ballad of Hollis Brown" is not a slow dance. Not sure about "Gold Dust Woman," and I left off "Papa Was a Rolling Stone" because it's not a romantic dance. (I found a clip of it from something like Soul Train, and the dancers were clearly baffled; it was slow but not a slow dance, so no one was close and smoochy.)

I generally don't like ballads much, but when I do love one, I love it extremely.

Kelly Clarkson's "Hear Me" is another one whose ballad credentials I'm unsure about. It can only be a slow dance, but it doesn't feel like one. Not a slow romantic dance. Maybe you should try it and see what the dancers do.

The posts from

martinskidmore and

mostlyconnect have reminded me how effective Will Young and Girls Aloud are at doing ballads. Not so keen on Gareth Gates, but love the Righteous Brothers' version of "Unchained Melody" (and indeed all the ballads they recorded with Spector).

Is the Miles Davis version of "Time After Time" a ballad? (Miles famously claimed to have stopped recording ballads in the Bitches Brew era because he loved playing them too much - expect of course "He Loved Him Madly" is a rare kind of ambient ballad, in the 'memorial to lost brother/lover' sense)

I think I've heard the Miles track only once, so I can't say. I suspect it is. Do people smooch to it?

A couple more I left off:

The Rolling Stones "Heart of Stone"
The Rolling Stones "Back Street Girl"

Their best ballads - maybe their only great ballads. In both of those, the words go to war with the ballad feel, and the balladry goes to war with the words. (I'd say "Lady Jane" has merits as a song, and there's some good melody in "Angie" and "As Tears Go By," but those tracks are weak performances.)

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Let's talk about BALLADS

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Topics Covered By Ballads

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is "time after time" a ballad?

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Re: is "time after time" a ballad?

Can't dance to it??

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11 songs on a "60 grebt singles" list I once posted on ILM that are (arguably) ballads

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Re: Topics Covered By Ballads

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It's Not a Ballad if it has no guitar solo

Re: 11 songs on a "60 grebt singles" list I once posted on ILM that are (arguably) ballads

Re: is "time after time" a ballad?

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If it was a slow dance in junior high school, it's a ballad

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afterthoughts

Re: is "time after time" a ballad?

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